Engineering

As always of course, it depends on your aspirations. If you are sure you are going to be happy for the rest of your working life being a hands-on engineer, then good for you

I have to disagree with this statement, basically because it is wrong.
If you go down the route of getting licensed, you will not spend the rest of your life in overalls. Unless, like me you choose to. Once you have you licence all sorts of opportunities open up both in the practical side and on the “office based” side of things. I have L.A.E. friends who have gone on to Maintenance control, quality, and development. I have friends who have contracted all over the world and I have a friend who chucked it All in and became a teacher!
On the other hand two of my graduate friends have had to leave the industry completely because there is no work out there.
Getting a degree after getting a licences is a common occurrence but becoming an L.A.E after getting a degree is very rare.

Rgds Cking

don’t YOU realise that we need both type of ‘engineers’?! Paper and hands on. Do you really think that all degree holders pontificate about how great they are and do nothing?

As a holder of a University degree in aerospace engineering and a full time maintenance engineer I know what has been the most useful when it comes to actually maintaining an aircraft. I’m sure a degree is entirely necessary and very appropriate when dealing with aircraft design and some aspects of it’s manufacture.
However a degree will not tell you how to seal a leaking fuel tank, how to fit a flush patch to a stressed skin aerofoil, how to time a magneto, how to re-fabric a control surface or how to service a main leg using only things you have to hand. Those are all things you learn how to do with an apprenticeship or in my case through experience. Those skills are what keep aircraft flying, not knowing the lift co-efficient or the density of air a 30,000ft, and I believe the topic of the thread was originally about what would be best for a prospective hands on maintenance engineer.
To clarify my statement about degree holders pontificating about how to maintain an aircraft with out having ever touched one. I can recite several situations where supposedly learned degree holders have recommended a course of action that would endanger the aircraft and lives of those on-board. These are people who have had years and years of experience holding a pen and paper, designing, thinking and analyzing data, not holding a ratchet and spanner and doing the job they tell other people to do. What looks good on paper does not always translate on the shop floor. In my experience the people with degrees who know the best way to manage aircraft maintenance are the line engineers who have work their way up.

“…. I didn’t get where I am today!”

Well its really a case of horses for courses! What do you want to do?

If you want your day job to be maintaining aircraft then clearly going via the route of apprenticeship-work experience-licences is the choice for you.

If you want to design or develop aircraft, then you go the A-Level/OND -HND/Degree/Masters route.

Personally I have a foot in both camps, because in all engineering disciplines, theory can fall down with lack of hands-on experience. I’m a degree qualified engineer who designs engine components, but have been a Formula One engine builder, and currently have two aircraft projects.

Your future carreer won’t be entirely one or the other either, as a degree qualified engineer may start in a paper office, but if you go into test or development engineering and prototyping etc. and you show a flair for hands-on engineering too, then you will broaden your opertunities in the future.

Equally, I know several licenced engineers who have gone onto paperwork or design office jobs.

The strength of any company is in the mix of its staffs capabilities, so its not always so black and white.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

If what you want to do with your life is get hands on with aircraft then a uni course is pretty much useless, get an apprenticeship instead. If you want to sit behind a desk and pontificate about how great you are and how you’d maintain aircraft without actually having touched one then a uni degree is fantastic for making you look good. .

And lo, with several clicks of his mighty PC keyboard he generalised and wrote off a vast arm of the aviation industry!

This type of post is depressing…..don’t YOU realise that we need both type of ‘engineers’?! Paper and hands on. Do you really think that all degree holders pontificate about how great they are and do nothing?
I worked hard for my degree at a College that does not have the kudos of Imperial an Southampton (QMC in Mile End, part of ULU) to become a flight test engineer I required it (the degree). Here I am 21 years down the line and some guy says I wasted my time!
Like it or lump it many engineers with degrees will have worked hard on designing and building that aircraft or system that you are now having to maintain….don’t knock em all with you tar filled brush!

Speaking as the course director for the country’s only BEng degree in Air Transport Engineering – set up at the request of the airline industry – I have to say I am somewhat alarmed at some of the negative comments made about the value of a university degree.

It is a fact, easily demonstrable from the career paths of our graduates, that an appropriate degree does indeed make a considerable difference to your future. As always of course, it depends on your aspirations. If you are sure you are going to be happy for the rest of your working life being a hands-on engineer, then good for you, a degree MAY not be the right thing to do. However, if you have a degree in you, and can think about where you would like to be in say, ten years time, then don’t waste the opportunity.

You should not lose sight of the fact that more and more aviation companies are requiring degree level education for the new staff they recruit.

[QUOTE=Lindy’s Lad;1295763]
Last point, just for your general info – aircraft experience is very hard to get while in training at an academy, however most have at least one airframe to play with. Generally you’ll do u/c retracts, control rigging, basic stuff.

CoBC – Learjet
Northbrook – Jetstream 200
Hartlepool – Jet Provost T5
Newcastle Aviation academy – 737-200, Jetstream 200 (+fuse), Jet Provost T3 (x2), and more to come…..

Actually – airframes currently at Northbrook:

Jetstream 200 x 2
C172 x 2
Hawker Hunter
Twin Commanche
Wessex Helicoptor rig
Britania and B707 fuselage sections

engines:

Leonides/continental/lycoming examples/ Gipsy queen
JT9D/ 2x RB211/ Avon/ Spey/ 3x Dart
Merlin in the reception area (one of three we put together when i was there). Northbrook also provides the first year of training to the Virgin Atlantic Apprentices.

Still the best bet in the country right now I think – both Northbrook and Virgin Atlantic apprenticeship scheme.

FB

Not going to Uni when you have the chance to go is just plain stupid!

You will get a much higher paying job with a Uni degree, and have a lot more options available to you. I would suggest mechanical engineering over aerospace though, as there are a lot more applications for it in the aviation world. An aerospace engineering degree is very narrowly focused. Mech. Eng. is also a lot more hands on too.

With a uni degree you will also be able to afford the time and money to volunteer at a museum or other restoration project or even learn to fly. You will also be more likely to earn enough money to actually own an aircraft someday too. It’s your choice, but I always think it’s best to provide yourself with as many options as possible. Try to do as much research as you can about the field you want to work in, and look at what you need to do to get there. If it’s vintage aviation, I would rather do the work as a volunteer than depend upon it for a living. It’s a whole lot more fun that way.

All the best,
Richard

DeHavEng
Rank 4 Registered User Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 116

If what you want to do with your life is get hands on with aircraft then a uni course is pretty much useless, get an apprenticeship instead. If you want to sit behind a desk and pontificate about how great you are and how you’d maintain aircraft without actually having touched one then a uni degree is fantastic for making you look good.

I am looking forward to my Aviation Management Degree.

Keeping my hands clean, and maybe a little pontificating about how good I am.:):):):):):):)

I havent ruled out the RAF i know the route if i go that way but i want to have a look at everything else before its to late

cheers

Too late? no such thing! Fellah who graduated with me had his 50th birthday in the second year. (he now works for NAA) 😀

I havent ruled out the RAF i know the route if i go that way but i want to have a look at everything else before its to late

cheers

XH668- You could always try the other path i.e RAF – they need engineers and you get to travel to hot and sandy places!

😀

or raf funded uni?

XH668- You could always try the other path i.e RAF – they need engineers and you get to travel to hot and sandy places!

Cheers for the info guys

Its made it alot more confusing, im now considering not going to uni.

I shall read through this again and properly digest and disect it all and have a jolly good think.

Cheers 🙂

I’ve gone for aviation related instead of direct aviation, i’m just over week into an apprenticeship with Rolls Royce Derby. Early days, but i’m loving it. I’ll come out with a minimum of two NVQ’s (Level 2+3 in Performing Engineering Operations) and a BTEC (Operations and Maintenance, I start this soon and will know more then). After that, who knows, I can do pretty much whatever I want providing I keep up my side of the deal- lots of hard work.

Granted this isn’t the route becoming an aircraft engineer, but less than 20ft from my work shop is a world class collection of aero engines- both sides of the walls. The door to the left and I get an eyeful of Trent 1000, or Trent 900 and anything else in that day, go right and I can go from Merlin to Pegasus to Trent 800 in 30ft, with a sit in a Canberra cockpit if I want it.

These jobs are out there, you have to look for them, and want it bad enough. I believe the programme reopens for 2009 applications in November. And being far away from site is no excuse, I know somebody who moved from London to Bristol to be able to do this job.

Just another idea for the pot.

Dean

im currently at uni studying aerospace tech, as well as a couple of my friends doing aerospace engineering

southampton university as well as imperial college, are the so called “best” for the field

great if you love endless amounts of mathematics and algebra

im at coventry studying aerospace engineering which is a much more practical course than the one my two friends are doing, the fact that coventry has two complete GI airframes compared to southampton which has none, helps illustrate this, coventry also have two full motion simulators, and a supersonic wind tunnel, not the most prestigious uni in the world, but the course is excellent.

Regards

Ben

I’ve heard some rumours (some contradictory) about GA aircraft. LAMS is being phased out and will be replaced by an EASA licence category. With this in mind, the pay rate should become higher for GA licenced engineers WITH the EASA pt66 qualification.

Just to hammer a couple of points home – apprenticeships are virtually impossible to get, don’t pay, and don’t get you a licence.

To get a licence without taking four years of your life away (2 years at an academy, 2 years RELEVANT aircraft experience) there is only one route to go:
Get a job (simple… haha) with an EASA part 145 company – there is a list on the CAA website somewhere! While you are working, enrol on a licence by post course. After at least 5 years you’ll get your licence and you’ll have been working and earning money. Providing you have worked on aircraft over 5700Kg, registered in Europe with an EASA 145 airline!

Last point, just for your general info – aircraft experience is very hard to get while in training at an academy, however most have at least one airframe to play with. Generally you’ll do u/c retracts, control rigging, basic stuff.

CoBC – Learjet
Northbrook – Jetstream 200
Hartlepool – Jet Provost T5
Newcastle Aviation academy – 737-200, Jetstream 200 (+fuse), Jet Provost T3 (x2), and more to come…..

I know there are many more places with working aircraft, but I can’t remember them all off hand! More suggestions welcome….

Absolutely agree! I started working in microlights when I was 16 – moved on to do my licence at Northbrook College (ex Royal Chelsea) at Shoreham airport. Worked for several companies and wanted to branch into historic aircraft. This was a fantastic place, and I worked for Aero Vintage (now Retrotec) and did some contract work for Hawker Restorations (through AV). As someone has said before though – it just doesn’t pay enough to live! I learnt a lot which was incrediably valuable, and combined with the 6 months voluntary I did with the IWM Duxford, was one of the best working experiences of my career.

I moved into GA at Shoreham to get me back into Sussex and can’t agree more witht he comments above. As a licenced guy I made about £12k per year. I had to move.

I cut a work experience deal with an airline to gain experience and after nearly a year of volunteer working, I was moved onto a paid contract. 5 years on I’m still here, type-rated on A340-300/600 and working A320/21s and B747s. I rebuild and work on vintage aircraft in my spare time. the airline pays my bills, the vintage stuff out of work gives me the fun.

Be prepared though, its been nealry 9 years since I ventured down this route – anly now do I have some nice toys to play with – and more in the pipeline!

XH668, if you want some more info, or a few pointers, PM me.

FB

If what you want to do with your life is get hands on with aircraft then a uni course is pretty much useless, get an apprenticeship instead. If you want to sit behind a desk and pontificate about how great you are and how you’d maintain aircraft without actually having touched one then a uni degree is fantastic for making you look good.
If you want to become licensed you need a minimum of 2 years on the job experience after any apprenticeship is completed. Uni qualifications count for diddly when you get to the CAA unless they are from an approved training centre of which I believe there are a mere 8 in the UK.
And never, never, never, never, ever get into classic aircraft until you have atleast 10 years experience under your belt and can afford it. The pay is terrible, the aircraft are sods to work on and unless you are extremely careful they are unforgiving when you make a mistake.
If you want my advice, get an apprenticeship with someone like BAe, BA, Virgin, Qinetic, DARA anyone like that. Serve your time and then go contracting for 5 years, get your licenses in that time with afew type ratings. Then work your way into the GA industry. From there THEN and only THEN if you are REALLY REALLY DEALY SERIOUS about classic aircraft do you want to be thinking about working on them.
Yes the skills are rapidly dying out for classic aircraft, I am fortunate to work with the last people who did a proper training course and apprenticeship and they’re no younger than their late 50’s. I try and keep my eye’s open and learn as much as I can, but 20 years from now I’ll still be learning because there is always more than 1 way to skin the same cat.

I whole-heartedly agree with this!
My addition to this from personnel experience is AVOID GA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
GA is full of very hard working, skilled and dedicated people who work on rich boys toys. The reason that the rich boys stay rich is because the don’t pay the people who look after the toys what they are worth.
To get hands on experience go through GA then when the airline maintenance providers start taking on, go to one of them. It may not be the career that appeals to you now but it will put a roof over your head and give you the cash to do what you want. Don’t forget you can always volunteer to work on war birds in your spare time.
Sorry to be so damming about GA but it’s what I have experienced 1st hand and through listening to ex-GA guys in the airline.

One other thing. Once you have your licence and the relevant experience you will need to get an approval on the individual aircraft type. This takes the form of a eight to twelve week course on the aircraft and type experience. Most airlines and maintenance providers will bond you to the company for five years after this course. Once you have this. THE WORLD IS YOUR OYSTER!!!!

Rgds Cking

I agree with the gist of all the above. You must decide what you want to do – if you want to get real hands-on skills then forget uni unless you can find something like the Newcastle/Kingston one mentioned. A BSc in aero eng will enable you to design aircraft bits, not maintain aircraft!

I have a BSc in Aero Eng from Imperial but that didn’t help, so I joined the RAF as an engineer officer, which gave some years experience in a management setting but not hands-on. In my day the Navy and Army engineer officers were much more hands-on – are they still, anyone?

Leaving the RAF I left aviation as no-one wanted managers if they haven’t got licences…

Good luck – you’ll need it

If what you want to do with your life is get hands on with aircraft then a uni course is pretty much useless, get an apprenticeship instead. If you want to sit behind a desk and pontificate about how great you are and how you’d maintain aircraft without actually having touched one then a uni degree is fantastic for making you look good.
If you want to become licensed you need a minimum of 2 years on the job experience after any apprenticeship is completed. Uni qualifications count for diddly when you get to the CAA unless they are from an approved training centre of which I believe there are a mere 8 in the UK.
And never, never, never, never, ever get into classic aircraft until you have atleast 10 years experience under your belt and can afford it. The pay is terrible, the aircraft are sods to work on and unless you are extremely careful they are unforgiving when you make a mistake.
If you want my advice, get an apprenticeship with someone like BAe, BA, Virgin, Qinetic, DARA anyone like that. Serve your time and then go contracting for 5 years, get your licenses in that time with afew type ratings. Then work your way into the GA industry. From there THEN and only THEN if you are REALLY REALLY DEALY SERIOUS about classic aircraft do you want to be thinking about working on them.
Yes the skills are rapidly dying out for classic aircraft, I am fortunate to work with the last people who did a proper training course and apprenticeship and they’re no younger than their late 50’s. I try and keep my eye’s open and learn as much as I can, but 20 years from now I’ll still be learning because there is always more than 1 way to skin the same cat.