Essex Heinkel He 177 crash

Julian Hart

Just read the long piece you posted in August 2011 – very interesting, especially I had little but cursory knowledge of the 177.

Isn’t there one at Cosford?

I recall there being a DB610 powerplant on display at Duxford when I was picking up some Meteor wings back in Jan 2010. It was not a crash-site relic and appeared complete .

It was a very impressive engine but, unfortunately, I don’t think I took a photo of it.

Anon.

I have a vague recollection of seeing a coupled DB 606 engine presumably from or intended for the Heinkel He 177 at the Science Museum’s Reserve Storage Facility at Wroughton on an open day. Can anyone confirm that or better still post a pic of it?

If you are in the Saffron Walden area, Julian’s article on this crash has just been published in the Saffron Walden Historical Society journal. Having read it myself, I can say that it is an interesting read!

Adrian

Hi all Yes its Butlers Farm at Ashdon really I always say Little Walden. Very interesting to see the pilot visited Duxford didnt know that….If anyone knows of any photos of this visit Id be very interested according to my records that would have been Heinz Reis. The wartime records state snapped 15` from tail unit…However the photos clearly show the snap is just behind trailing edge of both wings. It seems entire fusellage and tail unit snapped off, flipping main section over into a tumbling spin creating a flat belly impact. 25 years ago I was given a rusty corroded steel shell casing allegedly from this Heinkel it was much bigger than 13 or 20mm appearing more 30mm than anything. Whilst its possible a 30mm cannon was mounted this callibre gun was extremely rare over UK operations..only one ME110 shot down in 1940 was equipped with this (what I wouldnt give for a few cases from that one). No traces of frontal 20mm or 30mm were found in the wreckage of the Little Walden Heinkel 177…unless some local lad was quick on the scene and got lucky!!!! Wow!!, although I did hear a few years back that a local person had one of the blades from this Heinkel He 177 but I never managed to verify this….Cheers all Julian

Oh dear… I can see book lust coming on here!

I can recall a case being found in Gt Sampford about 15 years ago that was large, but did not match an American 0.50 case, and I wondered at the time if it was 13.5mm. No way of course of tracing it, but I wonder if it came from this aircraft?

Did anyone ever investigate the P38 crash site at Tindon End? It spun in on approach, so I presume the wreckage was all on the surface, but you never know what might be kicking about still…

Adrian

OK i suppose I should have said 4 prop a/c…its a fair cop guv 😀

Sorry, not trying to score points! 🙂 Fascinating aircraft though; imagine the stresses on the underside of the (stressed?) wing skins when pulling out of a dive and then the four great wheel-wells cut into the underside! The two propellers turn in opposite directions too, meaning the two heavy and complicated coupling gearboxes were different on either side – nightmare! 🙁

But it was possible to ‘clutch-out’ an engine and run on three – assuming the nacelle wasn’t on fire! :diablo:

OK i suppose I should have said 4 prop a/c…its a fair cop guv 😀 (same goes for manchester sort of really :))
The supposed drag reduction didnt work out anyway,they had to go for large radiators in the end (evap cooling failed).
Not sure if it actually did end up structurally very strong ??but it did end up heavy when beefed up for dive bombing !! Winkle Brown certainly did not trust it structurally – esp in view of very light control forces.
I also agree that the JU88 was an outstanding and extremely versatile a/c !

cheers baz

If they had done the 4 engined conversion much earlier in the war and dispensed with the ridiculous dive bombing requirement…

I suppose the real irony is that the He177 always was a four-engined aircraft only it was designed as a twin-propellered aircraft. I’m not sure whether that was really to give the small advantage in drag over four separate engines or whether it was to humour the Nazi higher-ups who disliked four-engined designs.

I wonder also if some of the over-engineering was due to the weakness of the Fw200 Condor that the Luftwaffe kept breaking in half. I suppose you can only take the dive-bombing thing so far but in the (far smaller) Ju88 it seemed to work and produced the most versatile German aircraft of the war.

One of my favourite Airfix kits, moulded in blue plastic & came with a couple of Fritz X wire guided missiles 😎

Nonetheless, of all the German bombers the He177 was the most beautiful and if it would not have been for material shortages at the later part of the war, she might have been a very effective weapon. Danny

Astonishing technology which made the interior of a Lancaster look like a tractor by comparison. A good job it didn’t all work.

Interesting analogy between Lanc and 177 Ian.
The 2 types shared almost identical problems in their infancy.
But the way in which these problems were tackled was chalk and cheese.ISTR that the spec for both a/c included dive bombing :rolleyes:
The Lanc of course started out as the Manchester,but the Vulture engine was very unreliable (even when derated !) and of course eventually common sense prevailed and Chadwick managed to borrow 4 merlins and flight test a 4 engined variant,incidentally owing to pressure from the other manufacturers to cancel the Lanc project – Chadwick stripped out all equipment which was non essential to increase the Lancs already impressive load lifting capabilities.
How different for the 177,they wasted years trying to get the extremely troublesome coupled engine/gearbox fire and reliability problems sorted – also the handling characteristics/stability/structural fragility problems were never fully sorted.
If they had done the 4 engined conversion much earlier in the war and dispensed with the ridiculous dive bombing requirement and perhaps also done a ‘Chadwick’ and stripped out all the non essential gear perhaps it could have been a useful a/c but I doubt it would have ever been a ‘nice’ a/c to fly.
I feel sorry for the poor crews who had to fly the ‘Luftwaffefeuerzeug’ !
An engine with a propensity for catching fire in normal cruise flight was totally unacceptable even in 1941,it (the engine) was never up to production standard.

rgds baz

Some years ago the pilot visited Duxford accompanied by somebody from the area. We took down details but where they are????

The a/c is given as 6N+AK Werk Nr. 332379 crashed 0103 hours 19/4/1944, in wheatfield, broken in half 15′ forward of fin.
Essex Record Office in file C/W 1/2/61 gives, “burnt out Butlers Farm.”

Believe Fritz Kopf and George Speyerer were buried in Saffron Walden Cemetery the same day.

Any of the HE177 crew survive?

I think we know people in common Julian, might meet you soon!

Julian

Thanks for this interesting thread. I live very near to little walden but was unaware that this was the location. I was led to believe that the he177 crashed nearer to Ashdon at Butlers farm. Would this be the same location ( its not that far as the crow flies). Any way if you need any help with photos etc i would be more han willing.

Steve

Icare 9 cheers I will pursue that line…..and of course will let you know what happens. If either of you two need to email me privately my email addy is easily located on Internet just type “Julian Evan-Hart” into Google and you`ll soon find it…….Cheers Jules.PS Ian I take it you live reasonably locally to crash …Im in Stevenage about 40 minutes away..

Thanks for the descriptions, I’ve always wondered if it buried itself to any great extent. It would still be worth returning with more sophisticated equipment. I’ve always been interested in the 177. Astonishing technology which made the interior of a Lancaster look like a tractor by comparison. A good job it didn’t all work.

Jules: Would you not be able to obtain Hupperts RCAF files, if not already done?
Have you seen: http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/remembers/sub.cfm?source=collections/virtualmem/Detail&casualty=1800814 ?
As a respected author, might they be able to contact any surviving family on your behalf?