EU Constitition

Phil, read my posts. I was replying to the people who said Britain is not Europe. And the reason why I said this forum was crap had to do with the fact that no one gave a serious answer, not because they didn’t agree with me, otherwise it would be quite stupid of me to post it on a forum. It was about two totally different discussions, I don’t expect people to agree with me, but I think I wasn’t completely wrong when saying this forum was crap, regarding 99% of the current topics. Seems like quantity of posts and signatures these days matter more. That’s all I wanted to say.

“OK, the UK is geographically and historically a part of Europe”. Or you say “Europe does not exist”,

Geforce are these the only choices available? Whats wrong with, “yes we are a part of Europe, yes we want to trade, co-operate, watch each others backs, look after each other etc but not be part of an ever more federal superstate.” Why can we not do all these things and still be allowed our independence? Why do you allow so little choice and why do you expect us to just agree with you? Why do you villify us when we don’t agree with you and what makes you think we regard ourselves as any better than Europe? Different perhaps in a small way but better? No. Nobody ever said that.

Originally posted by Hand87_5
Well if your representants at the parlement don’t represent the general public opinion , it sounds like a major failure in your democratic system to me !

Now this is something I am inclined to agree upon. 😡

Tell me if I’m wrong , but I thought that Mrs Thatcher negociated a much lower fee for the UK than the other members, is it still true?

In a word no it isn’t. Thatcher negotiated a lower premium full stop, not a lower premium than anybody else. To start off it was a lot higher than most, it was the one decent thing that bitch ever did, made it a little bit fairer.

Originally posted by Geforce
OK, seems like this forum really is worthless piece of crap. Apart from Hand nobody even did the effort to contribute something. 😡 😡 😡 It’s sad to see discussions here can’t reach any further than the level of “what was the colour of your sh!t this morning”-polls.

Anyway, what suprises me in this constitution is the fact that there will be a way left open to leave the EU. Actually, this was also in the Soviet constitution. But if a country would leave the EU, without directly being punished, wouldn’t it suffer a lot from the economic consequences?

Hand, apart from the Commission there will also be a “president” of the EU, who would take over the role of the EU-presidency, which is now a rotating system among the memberstates. This will make it a lot cheaper.

And Snapper, you Britons don’t have to pay much to the EU anyway, all buildings etc are either being paid by the Belgian, Luxembourg or French taxpayer. If you have to pay the EU that’s because the UK is breaking a rule, but due the EU, especially in the field of finances and business, there has been saved a lot of money.

Why is it a worthless peice of crap? Because some people don’t agree with what you say? Thats the whole point you see. Thats why we get so apathetic and sometime angry. Because people like you cannot and will not accept that we DO NOT WANT WHAT YOU WANT. What part of this do you not understand and why can you not accept and respect it?

Originally posted by Geforce
As I said the UK is not any difference from the rest of Europe. But it’s not like the EU wants to attach the UK to the mainland, is it?

So is Africa part of Europe? After all, it is just a few miles off the coast, and the people there are not all that different to us either…

Flood.

As I said the UK is not any difference from the rest of Europe. But it’s not like the EU wants to attach the UK to the mainland, is it?
I find it extremely arrogant of British to consider themselves different than any other Europeans. Either you say “OK, the UK is geographically and historically a part of Europe”. Or you say “Europe does not exist”, but than talk about all countries individually and don’t mention the E-word at all. Germany and France are not the same, it’s not like “the continent” is a country which is going to attack you. :rolleyes:

Ohh, I think since 1701 we can talk about the UK, I really don’t understand you Britons, why do you want to be called English or Scottish. I consider myself to be a Belgian (with Dutch as his mothertongue) and European, but I really detest this flag waving regionalism.

And the EU really doesn’t need the UK for the money. :rolleyes:µ

BTW, Snapper, many British do want to be part of Europe, but they don’t want to be “ruled” by Brussels, and that’s a completelly different issue. I don’t want a EU-superstate: that’s never going to happen anyway, because all EU-nations agree on that fact. France and Germany are also very keen on their souvereignity. But there should be a clear distinction between things decided in Brussels and the national capitals.

I think Hand may have put his finger on it.
I was born and grew up in south-east England. If we went to the coast, out there across the sea were other countries, foreigners and “things”.
The first international land boundary I ever saw was France/ Belgium and the first I crossed was Germany/Austria. It came as quite a shock to think that the other side of that hedge, for example, was a different country. Not something my experiences had prepared me for. Shock isn’t the right word but I can’t think of a better one at the moment.
We are often described as an island race. As I’m a member of the race I don’t know what difference it makes, and equally, somebody who isn’t wouldn’t know either, but I suppose it’s possible that there is something in the national psyche of an island race that’s “different”.

I’m English, not British and definitely not European.

It’s not a lot of crap mate. We don’t want to be part of Europe. WHY does Europe so much want us to be part of them? THAT is a question I want answered. In fact, i’ll post a thread on it, see if it gets taken seriously. Could be illuminating.

Originally posted by Hand87_5
Yep but the UK is an Island and it makes a big difference.
A lot of the Islands in the world have some cultural differences.

Yep. Some islanders used to eat peole, for a start…;)

Not very helpful, I admit. Sorry.

Flood.

Yep but the UK is an Island and it makes a big difference.
A lot of the Islands in the world have some cultural differences.

I don’t know Hand, I don’t like the idea of a referendum. Democracy is not perfect, but there’s really no better way to govern a country and to satisfy the majority of the population (not all). Actually I think it’s Locke who said democracy is just a dictatorship backed by a majority of the population. I agree.

Interflug nice to see there are at least some Brits on the forum who understand the benefits of European cooperation. Why would it be impossible to be both British/English and European? I mean, historically, Britain has never been isolated from the rest of Europe. As to say the UK is not Europe, that’s just crap. The UK is not a different culture, if you believe that you’re either stupid or arrogant. What makes one thing the differences between lets say Britain and France are so much bigger than between France and Spain or Italy. All EU-nations have their own culture. From now on, I’m going to stop using the word continental Europe because that would mean that the canal is a frontier of two civilisations. It seems only football can bring British closer to the rest of Europe. The UK is a great country, but to be honest, in daily life, it resembles a lot to Belgium (at least from what I’ve experienced).

Originally posted by paulc
…The source of the UK BSE problem was (i think) traced back to some feed bought from France…

First I’ve heard of that one… Was it a patriotic Amercan scientist who discovered that link, by any chance?

Flood.

Originally posted by Hand87_5
I think that the swiss system of “votation” for every important decision much more democratic.

Can’t see that being successfully introduced in Britain, though. Too many businesses with something to lose would have a quiet word with ‘el presidente’ about party-political financial backing before it even got to being discussed. – Nermal

Cheers Paul – didn’t realise that. Can’t recall voting for them either.

MINIDOH, I do live in England as a matter of fact, hence my location indicated as EU Tier2…accurate I think. I too am proud to be English and I am as proud to be part of the EU also. Rather that than our current role of some subservient satellite of the US.
The by pass that I mentioned is about 15kms from my home and is well appreciated by those who use it. I understand that its one of mant thousands of projects nationwide to have BENIFITTED from the European Union. I still firmly believe that without the EU
the UK has a very difficult and uncertain future. You and our lovely press may be content to see the UK become some novelty item off the north-west coast of continental Europe where tourists come to experience “changing currency” and gorping at Red clad soldiers tramping around “Buck House” but I’d like a bit more for this country than that.

100% AGREED. That is what I call a major failure in our democratic system.

Once you vote for one guy (basically one party) , they consider this as a white card.
I think that the swiss system of “votation” for every important decision much more democratic.

Originally posted by Hand87_5
Well if your representants at the parlement don’t represent the general public opinion , it sounds like a major failure in your democratic system to me !

But what are the people to do – the elections need only have one major attention-grabber and everything else gets slid in through the back door by the winning party.
If you voted for labour in the elections then they take it as carte blanche that everything in their manifesto is fine with the people – so those who wanted an end to 18 years of tory rule suddenly found that they had elected not a left-field socialist government but a centre-right one who would continue to run down the unions and bow to the demands of big business, to continue with privatisation, continue to place cronies (usually high donating labour-backers from big business) in positions of high power, failing to invest in the NHS and transport as promised, generally continue to dither, oh and fail to carry through their pledges on referendums or public consultation for various contentious matters – single currency and EU membership for example – which they think/know they will not do well in.
In France they recently had an election where everyone had the choice between a far right politician and the subsequent winner – had the losing politician had some excellent far-sighted policies in his prospective portfolio, or even some potential vote winning policies, would he have been voted for, or would the electorate have voted against him, just the same, because he was a fascist? That is what happened with this cretin Blair – he isn’t a tory so let’s vote him in and sod what rubbish he drags in to govern us with. At the moment the country still loathes him – to the point where he has demanded that his spin doctors make the country respect him even if it won’t love him – but he will almost certainly still win the next election because there is no one else even close enough to unseat him.
The kind of parties who would bring Britain out of Europe are not going to be backed by big business (who want Britain in there to boost their profits, and hedge their bets by backing all the major parties, just in case…) and have other policies which might be the equivalent of, for example, turning Britain into a police state or downgrading murder to a minor crime – i.e. making them unelectable.

That’s how it is here – it wouldn’t surprise me if one party threw in something stupid, like the outlawing of blue biros and compulsory use of red ink on all envelopes, just to see how far they can push their luck; when the people query it the reply would be “well, it was in our manifesto…”;) – Nermal

Snapper,

minor correction our euro mp’s are elected – it is the eu commission that is not, either way we would be better off without them.

I know that it’s not really democratic. The problems are the same here (not about EU , but about other topics.
Look at Chirac who got the defeat of the century on last week end and who doesn’t give a damm sh*t about the message delivered by the people.

Politics is just a silly game for people fascinated by the Power.