There’s plenty of discussion as to the relative merits of the US and Europe.
In fact, there’s been so much that the posts have become modem killers, and I stopped reading them. But a lot of it seems to be an American perception that Europeans are arrogant and look down on them morally and culturally.
Fair point. But on the other side, Americans seem to view us Euros as some form of mentally deficient communist plant life who associate with “evil” countries.
Why do you think this mutual misunderstanding arose?
By: Geforce - 24th July 2002 at 13:59
RE: Just a thought
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 24-07-02 AT 02:24 PM (GMT)]Skythe is right, that was due the Union’s common foreign and defence policy. You know, actually the EU has two seats in the security council (France and the UK), because whatever will come out of it, UK and France have to make the same decissions. Therefor saying that Britons are not a part of Europe is wrong, because they are the ones who also make the decissions (look at Chris Pattern, the EU commissioner of foreign affairs, who’s British).
Generalising is wrong when dealing with racial issues, but I think its not wrong when you adapt if for politics. I mean, not everybody in America is pro-Bush, but still, for the sake of argument, Bush is the leader of the Americans (and here are the problems with democracy) and represents them. Get my point?
True Mongu, Tatcher was anti-European, but she was more anti … I think she was one of the biggest mistakes that ever came out of the UK. Don’t take this personnal I hope. 😀
By: skythe - 24th July 2002 at 13:07
RE: Just a thought
You’re quite right, Snowman, generalizing is indeed misleading. Europe is composed of millions and millions of people, each and every one a separate thinking man, each with his own views and his own opinions. But I also assume the people on this forum are intelligent enough to understand that when I say Europe, I mean European governments and European institutions, not each and every one of you. And while European governments are in themselves quite different (when I have a problem with a specific government, I say so: I don’t think my opinion of the Belgian one is any secret), I can at times critisize them as a whole, for the mere reason that the often act as a whole. I’ll give you an example:
Two months ago the United Nations held a special session on the ‘massacre’ in Jenin. You know, the one that never took place. As usual it was a forum for Israel bashing, nothing special about that. It’s not even as if we expected any reference to the suicide bombings that have killed hundreds of Israelis since the Palestinian Authority came into being. We’ve come to expect nothing more from the UN. But this time it was special : only a few hours prior to the vote condeming Israel, and Israel alone, for something that did not take place, a suicide bomber blew himself up on board an Israeli bus killing more than a dozen. Do you know what happened when the vote came? the European delegations AS A WHOLE disappeared without a trace. This was indeed an improvement, they usually support such notions. But still, they couldn’t even muster enough basic decency to stand up to an obvious wrong. Israel and the US did, a few other nations as well, but not Europe. That’s why I can generalize about Europe, and incidently that’s just why we ignore anything Europe has to say.
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” So you think you are strong because you can survive the soft cushions. Well, we shall see. Biggles! Put her in the Comfy Chair! “
By: mongu - 24th July 2002 at 12:48
RE: Euro bashing
I knmow that some of the sentiments I expressed were a little harsh. I did say, that I know not all of them are true. The point is that putting a bad spin on things, this is how the US is seen in certain quarters.
Maybe it has always been this way, but starting with the Bush election and geting worse (esp. after first Kyoto, then 11/9, then Iraq and the ICC) the US has gone down in the eyes of many and lost most of the lustre it once had. Now that this lustre has gone, the faults can be seen more easily.
Geforce – yes, I see your point. Churchill was a racist also, but for all that he did save Europe from 50 years of oppression. Him and a few others, obviously! But Thatcher wasn’t so much an isolationist, more anti-European. She tried hard to improve relations with the US for example.
By: Snowman - 24th July 2002 at 10:40
RE: Euro bashing
Hmmm…
I think some of your opinions Mongu are quite strong and I would like to point out they are not the only viewpoint prevalent in Europe, in case US and Middle Eastern users of the forum take offense (I would!).
Geforce, IMO it is quite important not to generalise. If you are robbed by an Italian, are you going to say “Alkl Italians are thieves” or re you going to say “this man was a thief who happened to be Italian”? If you are swindled by a Roman Catholic, will you say “All RC are crooks” or “This man is a crook”? Sure there are some general characteristics that are noticeable in people, and it is a natural reflex to gneralise, but it’s important not to judge people too hastily or to reduce a nation to a set of clichés.
By: Geforce - 24th July 2002 at 07:42
RE: Me again,
I was not comparing their actions Mongu, only the fact that they thought their nations could better do it alone, so they are nationalists. I do not consider de Gaulle as a hero of the french people; I think he was a cheap nationalist, a racist … and so was Churchil. They were all democratic leaders, Franco was not, but he managed to isolate Spain from the rest of Europe for more than 5 decades just because he thought Spain could survive on its own. Get my point?
By: Sauron - 24th July 2002 at 04:16
RE: Euro bashing
Mongu
Other than being suprised at the degree of compliacency displayed by some europeans on occasion, Americans IMHO do not believe europeans are like you discribe.
Regards
By: mongu - 23rd July 2002 at 21:48
RE: Me again,
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 23-07-02 AT 09:51 PM (GMT)]Geforce, how can you compare Thatcher with Franco or Brezhnev?
Franco was a fascist, Brezhnev was lots of things, but Thatcher was a stateswoman who transfromed Britain. De Gaulle was pretentious and petty.
You see what us Europeans mean when we say we don’t always agree?!
The central difference really does seem to be a governmental one. From a European perspective, the US government is seen as corrupt (party funding, Bush and business), stupid (Bush + entire cabinet less Powell), xenophobic (ICC), hypocritical (eg. steel tarrifs, PLO and Al’Qaeda are terrorists but the IRA are freedom fighters), arrogant (Iraq, Kyoto) and racist (allow Mexicans in, but not Europeans).
Israel’s regime is seen as being hatred-filled and headed by a Jewish version of Hitler (you know who!)
Sure, people from the US and Israel will disagree with these notions. A lot of them are wrong or merely exaggerated, but some are true.
I invite all Americans, Israelis or anyone else to respond in similar fashion about Europe, or any EU states in particular. I know we have our faults!
I would also like to further the point that this stuff is general, and with ther exception of named individuals I do not intend to tar everyone with the same brush.
By: Rabie - 23rd July 2002 at 20:09
RE: Me again,
the most common misconception about europe is that we act as one – that is totall BS!!!
we vigerously disagree with each otehr other endless issues.
on the isralei front (the yanks haven’t got here yet) most of the conservitives have vested intrest in selling guns to arabs therefore giving the lberals a free hand to crisie you.
we don’t think israle should be destyed at all. as we have nedured terrism lke you have we say to you take the peace deal. both side are too stupid in our opinons not to have taken it and reigned in their hardliners. the plaestians don’t know how to fights (look at ireland on how to fight without killing your self). israeli should look to and notice how the military response failed and how policing works. what is so stupid is the arabs will acept the 67 israel. giving up gaza and the west bank should be easy and a cheap preice for peace. you id it beofre with egypt and lebanon.
rabie :9
By: Geforce - 23rd July 2002 at 16:58
Me again,
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 23-07-02 AT 05:09 PM (GMT)]Yes, but we are also generalising the Americans. What Skythe probably means is the Europeans who are on this forum, and have a similar opinion. There are a lot of differences between America and Europe (not cultural, but political), but the Union is not the leftist paradise, in fact, in many ways, the Union is a lot more conservative than the States. Rivalries between two economical superpowers will always be there, but the current situation is one of mutual misunderstanding rather than fundamental differences. There are people (leaders) who will not listen anymore, and make the same mistakes all over again. For many Europeans, not the US is the big satan, but Bush is. Maybe because we have had our portion of mindless nationalists some years ago, and we don’t want to go through this again. I’m not only talking about the Hitlers and the Stalins, but there are enough other leaders who made a mess of it just because they thought national pride is so important (De Gaulle, Tatcher, Franco, Breznjev …). It’s a pity nations have to be represented by their leaders, but that’s democracy. I’m sure many Americans don’t want to get the same image as Bush. Ie Bush is in contrast with the progressive Yankees who won the civil war.
We had enough discussions already on who’s right and wrong, this new thread will eventually end in a same way. I know generalising is wrong, but it makes everything a lot easier. Personally I think blaming one person (ie Bush) is not as bad as blaming a whole continent (Europe). Just my humble opinion.
By: Snowman - 23rd July 2002 at 14:47
Just a thought
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 23-07-02 AT 02:49 PM (GMT)]The subjects being debated here are very complex and much too complicated for an easy, one-size-fits-all answer. As somebody living outside the region, the more I try to find out about the issues in the Middle East for instances, from as many different sources as possible, the more confusing it becomes. And yes I read Ha’aretz on line from time to time and I greatly appreciate the ed articles and the comments they publish. I also get a weekly digest of the Jerusalem Post among the sources of information I use. Not all Europeans have blinkers and not all Europeans refuse to get info at source (for both sides of the conflict).
I’d just like to say one thing in reaction to your posts Skythe: I am very surprised that you should generalise your ideas to such an extent. You talk about Europe as though it were a uniform group of people, all having the same ideas and beliefs.
The currents of political ideas and creeds expressed around Europe are very numerous and go from one extreme to the other.
Certain topics are very widely debated, both domestically in the various countries that make up the Union and inside the Union itself. Just because some politicians decide on a certain course of action doesn’t mean that everybody in Europe agrees with it.
It seems fairly clear that you are angry with Europe at the moment. Fair enough, but I am surprised that somebody who I thought to be an intelligent, rational and thoughtful person should pick the easy option and generalise in his views about Europe.
By: skythe - 23rd July 2002 at 14:18
RE: An example.
Seahawk, I’ve said so before and I’ll say it again : heaven knows there are more than enough to critisize Israel for, and there are a lot of people doing just that all over Israel. If you take the time to read Ha’aretz’s online edition in depth you will find the newspaper is very critical of the Israeli government, its policies and its action. Nor do I expect anything less from anyone abroad. I never said that we are undeserving of critisicm. We don’t need Europeans to tell us killing children is wrong, we are quite capable of that ourselves.
On the other hand, that does not mean that I will accept a Europe that tells Israel what it should do, telling us what leaders we should or should not elect, nor will I stand by while gross lies are being told about us in the European Media (I wonder where the 500 dead burying under the rubble of Jenin have disappeared to). I will not accept European nations who attempt to put our elected leaders on trial just to satisfy their hypocritical and arrogant notions of justice, nor will I stand by while others attempt to boycott us for defending ourselves while embracing those who commit crimes of far larger magnitude or those who openly preach and work for our very destruction.
> perhaps we have learned a bit from our history and prefer a
> diplomatic solution instead of violence
The question is what you do when diplomacy does not work. You take Europe’s last 50 years of peace for granted. It will not necessarily remain this way, nor will diplomacy always solve your problems. Do you think Iraq would have left Kuwait without military intervention?
Do you think Britain and France should not have declared war on Germany when it invaded Poland? Should Britain have waited for Argentina to return the Falklands? The unfortunate reality of life on this planet is that simetimes people and nation are violent and beligerant, and there comes a time when action, not words, are necessary.
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” So you think you are strong because you can survive the soft cushions. Well, we shall see. Biggles! Put her in the Comfy Chair! “
By: seahawk - 23rd July 2002 at 11:03
RE: An example.
Skythe, my point was that you seem to have no problems with such an article that clearly critices Germany, but you blame the europeans that they are criticising Israel for what they are doing with the Palestinians. I personally have no problem with Israel criticising germany when it shows anti-semitic tendencies, but perhaps then we should be able to express our dislike when childeren a killed by Israeli fighters.
If Israel as a friendly relationship to Germany (it has imo) then there must always be room for criticism.
(I could argue more about the article, espcially about the part claiming that Germany today feels no longer guilty for the holocaust, but that does not belong in here)
Europe does many things wrong, nobody denies that, but perhaps we have learned a bit from our history and prefer a diplomatic solution instead of violence. And when you look at the development Europe has gone through in the last 50 years it seems to have been quite succesfull for us.
By: Geforce - 23rd July 2002 at 10:44
An example.
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 23-07-02 AT 10:48 AM (GMT)]Yesterday the Iraqi minister of foreign affairs visited Belgium for a short chat with our own officials. It was not a ‘friendly’ visit, there weren’t any economical deals made, the only thing that came out of it was our gov’t asking Iraq to let the UN-envoy do their job, or else face more sanctions from the European Union. The EU never had good (political or economical) relations with Iraq, we don’t give aid to Iraq. Still, Europe first wants to see if there can’t be a diplomatic solution to this problem, before we risk the lives of our soldiers, sailors and airmen. The US didn’t like it, and said they were the ones who’ll decide when to use diplomacy and when to use military force. That’s arrogance. 100 %
By: skythe - 23rd July 2002 at 10:40
RE: Euro bashing
I never said that Europe is Antisemitic. I said Antisemitism is on the increase. If some of you can’t stand that, too bad, I don’t like it too much either.
Seahawk, I don’t really get your point. I read your link. In fact I read it a few weeks ago when it came out. What are you trying to say? Which part of my post did you not like? Which part was unjustified?
Geforce, neutral is in the eye of the beholder. How can you claim Belgium’s Mid East policy is neutral when the Belgian government is about to fund the Palestinian mission to Belgium and while EU money constitues a larger share of PA budget that all sorrounding Arab states? A paper recently published in France suggests the government actually stop the official policy of claiming neutrality when all parties involved know that is not the case. Europe is about as neutral as everyone else – that is, very little.
> Learn from Europes´ failures and successes.
Excellent advice. Problem is I don’t think those mistakes are all behind it and nor am I even sure it has indeed learned from its mistakes. Take Iran – yes, we dealt with them, as the US with Iraq. But that was decades ago, while today Iran is only a few years away from obtaining nuclear weapons. Considering their avowed dedication to our destruction, I find it hard to understand Europe’s ‘business as usual’ attitude. To me it is nothing but appeasement – you’re burying your heads in the sand, rather than standing up to a threat that may even be at one point or another turned against you!
> I find it amazing that you think that the USA selflessly sacrificed
> it´s men to save Europe.America goes to war when it suits America
> to do so
And yet, at the end of it, they did fight and die for YOU. And the did get you back on your feet. Many nations would have not, but America DID. Why is irrelevant. Would Europe fight should Israel be threatened? We both know that would be a resounding ‘No’. You critisize the USA for doing more than others have ever done, and certainly a great deal more that what Europe has ever done.
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” So you think you are strong because you can survive the soft cushions. Well, we shall see. Biggles! Put her in the Comfy Chair! “
By: Puffadder - 23rd July 2002 at 09:22
RE: Euro bashing
Hi Skythe
Briefly:
Even as Iran was holding American diplomats hostage, Irsael was selling weapons to Iran. Israel did lots of business with Iran, just as America did lots of business with Iraq.
Anti Semetism in Europe? In western Europe, France unfortunately is at the top of the league. With Europe´s largest Jewish and largest Muslim community, it´s hardly suprising. In Britain it´s similar. I was suprised to learn recently that Israeli universities and research institutes have the same access to European funding(viz. my tax Euros) as any European country.
“Do you really think Europe would be as prosperous and peaceful today had it not been for American reconstruction after WWII and the subsequent defensive umbrela, which incidently continues to this day?)”
The USA certainly built up Germany and Japan after the war.
They´d seen what England and France did to Germany after WWI and soon figured that if they did the same, Germany would soon march again. During the Cold War the USA did brisk business with Europe selling aircraft and othe weapons. The Cold War was a perfect symbiosis. We got peace and the Americans got to sell lots and lots of weapons. France and England lost hegemony in the Middle East and America took over. By and large, a Win-Win.
“one gets the distinct feeling that the endless quasi-moral diatribe regularly coming out of Europe is, for lack of a better word, hypocrtical BS.”
Skythe, when you walk along a path and stumble because of an obstacle, do you warn those behind you of the obstacle, or do you just stand there and watch them also stumble and fall? Learn from Europes´ failures and successes. As Bismark once said, ” A fool learns from his own mistakes, I learn from the mistakes of others”
I like Israel- I spent half a year on a kibbutz in Northern Israel and have been there twice on vacation. Nice people, nice country. You fell for a fat man selling snake oil, and right now your country is going nowhere and getting there quick. You HAVE friends in Europe- listen to them.
Considering your diction and grammar, I find it amazing that you think that the USA selflessly sacrificed it´s men to save Europe. America goes to war when it suits America to do so. We asked them to sign up to Kyoto, they told us to get lost. We asked them to sign up to the ICC, they told us to get lost. They preach trade liberisation, and when productive foreign companies flatten domestic unproductive steel mills, they impose tarifs.
Not being satisfied with being leader of the free world, they also want to be ruler of the whole world.
By: seahawk - 23rd July 2002 at 09:05
RE: Euro bashing
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=171757&contr…
Read this and stopp speaking one word about unrightfull criticsm of other countries.
By: Geforce - 23rd July 2002 at 09:01
RE: Euro bashing
Much of the criticism on Europe is justified, but saying Europe is a load of anti-semite BS (like some like to think, or even worse, say), that goes too far. Fact is Europe is not hated as much in the world as the United States, not because we are the better people, but because our gov’ts foreign policy is a lot more neutral. We don’t put Iran in the axis of evil list, just because they are not compatible with our western ideas of ‘democracy’. So is SA, but SA shares one big point with the west : oil.
Skythe mentions the Marshall plan again, which was truely necessairy for Europe to rebuild economy. Wheter this money was meant to help the poor Germans, English, Dutch, Belgians … or just to secure America’s largest trading partner is not of any importance. God knows what would have happened without the Marshall plan, Europe would look like Russia today, once communism would have been gone.
What also bothers me is the attitude of some Americans towards the continent, as if it were hostile, backwards. Whatever America looks like today, 80 % of it is based directly on European habits, culture, institutions, so I find a bit more respect justified. AFAIK the statue of liberty, symbol of the free world, was a gift from a country which some people now describe as the leader in anti-semitism and intollerance.
By: skythe - 23rd July 2002 at 04:45
RE: Euro bashing
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 23-07-02 AT 04:51 AM (GMT)]Can’t speak for the Americans, but I can tell you what it looks like from Israeli eyes.
You see Mongu, when Europe is warming up to the world’s largest sponsor of international terrorism ( [link:www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,761527,00.html|Iran was behind 1994 Argentina bombing, says defector ] ), when European money is used to educate Palestinian children that Jews are thieves and monkeys ( [link:www.edume.org/reports/3/intro.htm|The Palestinian Authority School Textbooks For The Year 2000] ), or for much much worse ( [link:www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/Full&cid=102… the euro trail] ), when antisemetisim is on the increase ( [link:www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=119115&contrassID=3… ‘New Anti-Semitism’] ) and has even turned deadly ( [link:www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=185742&contrassID=3… officer killed when anti-Semitic sign explodes in Russia] ) , one gets the distinct feeling that the endless quasi-moral diatribe regularly coming out of Europe is, for lack of a better word, hypocrtical BS.
God knows that we Israelis are far from perfect and that a lot of criticism of Israel is very justified. But to preached to by nations whose history is drenched in more blood than one can even possibly imagine, and who had to be saved from themselves by American intervention (Do you really think Europe would be as prosperous and peaceful today had it not been for American reconstruction after WWII and the subsequent defensive umbrela, which incidently continues to this day?), is really too much.
I do love Europe, I’ve spent six years of my life in it and countless vacations. I’m just tried of coming to this forum and hearing how grand Europe is and how terrible America is or how stupid Bush is, when not one of us is even slightly better.
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” So you think you are strong because you can survive the soft cushions. Well, we shall see. Biggles! Put her in the Comfy Chair! “
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July 22, 2002 at 11:03 pm