Euro nations

RE: Euro nations

Vortex, you’re correct in stating that the dollar has devaluated in front of the Euro for a great deal because of US corporate screw-ups/cover-ups. But with the euro now being a ‘real’ currency, i’m not so sure if the dollar will be able to regain ground, and certainly not within a matter of months. The blow the US economy has gotten from it’s rotten components is considered really serious here – and with the euro now in the position to prove itself, this might lead to an interesting competition between the two.

Of course this depends for a large part on how well corporate America is able to regain some credibility. But i don’t think it (nor the rest of the global economy) can afford one more scandal of Enron or Worldcom magnitude without major consequences. And this would have far worse results than a weakened dollar (which is destabilising enough).

RE: Euro nations

That’s misleading Arthur, Americans have only ourselves (certain corporations) to blame for the devaluing of the dollar (linked to invester confidence) not because the Euro is stronger. If that’s the case, almost every where else is getting stronger versus the dollar. Dollar will rebound, but unfortunately experts think it’ll take about a year.

RE: Euro nations

You can’t imagine how glad i am to live in Euroland. My wallet used to be stuffed with Dutch, Belgian and German money all the time, since i live close to both countries and cross borders quite a lot. It’s a lot more practical for me – it would be different of course if i were some isolated muddweller somewhere far away from the rest of the world, but thankfully i am not.

For me, it also illustrates the fact that i can consider myself now a European more. Even though i don’t like the European institutions for abovementioned reasons and the general inclarity of those institutions, sticking to individual countries competing on their own small level is IMHO something which can’t be seen as an economic reality anymore. Economies have grown beyond national borders for quite some time now, and it’s inevitable that the economic infrastructure should follow.

I can understand people clinging on to their national currency because of nostalgic or nationalistic sentiments, but i think sentiments are something else than reasons.

I do admit that prices have risen. However, prices have risen mostly in the smaller sectors: private vendors, bars, stuff like that. Unless you buy your everyday stuff at garage sales or go out to the bar every night to get drunk, life hasn’t gotten more expensive as the normal inflation rates.

The strength of the Euro as a currency self-evident as it is gaining massively on the dollar. The dollar has dropped almost 25% against the Euro in the seven months after the introduction of the Euro as a in-your-pocket-currency (it already existed pro forma as the different European currencies were fixed for a few years prior to 2002).

Also, the argument of a country autistically changing it’s interest rates while ignoring other countries is something of the past for many years already. Of course it’s impossible thankt to the ECB, but also it’s an unwise thing to do as money is no longer limited by borders as people are.

RE: Euro nations

Although the EU institutions have problems the issue is not pulling them down but trying to reform them from inside. We can´t take the EU as an excuse to attack the idea. About undemocratic EU institutions, I have to remind that the comission is elected by people democratically elected. The comission isn´t directly elected by people, but elected by democratically elected people. Ministers of the goverments aren´t elected directly either and nobody question their democratic legitimacy.

Euro nations

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 11-07-02 AT 11:14 AM (GMT)]”What concerns me about it is the fact that the change from the old currency to the new is not proportional in various areas – for example, someone’s hourly wage or salary may not be proportional to the cost of a loaf of bread during the switch. How do we know people aren’t/haven’t losing/lost money during the changeover??”

The big problem was not the transition itself. Everything went fine, but the prices itself have raised. For example, I used to pay about 240 BEF for AFM, now I have to pay € 6.70, which is about 270 BEF. 30 BEF doesn’t seem that much, but it’s the price of a loaf of bread.

RE: Euro nations

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 11-07-02 AT 08:27 AM (GMT)]The EU is undemocratic because it is still the council of ministers who get the last say and not the Parliament or the Commission. And maybe it’s not 100 % democratic, but having a president for whom only a minority voted, is that perhaps democratic.

Problem with the EU-institutions is that most people don’t vote for them, and therefor are not interrested in it. Belgium is the only country where you are forced to vote, and not only for the national parliaments but also for the EU.

I think you are underestimating Germany (or overestimating the UK :D). Germany may have a socialist-green gov’t, it is still very capitalistic. Do not forget that only 13 years ago, East-germany was still a very poor region, not all problems have been solved now, but at least the standard of living has raised. Capitalists only couldn’t have done this, neither could have socialists. It was them working together which made it possible for East-Germany to devellop. We all know what happened with the British capitalism after Tatcher. Maybe socialism wasn’t that evil after all :'(.

RE: Euro nations

Very pragmatic Geforce, but also inconsistent.

At the same time as deriding monarchies (presumably because they are also undemocratic) you also build up the EU (equally undemocratic).

Also, the German economy isn’t that strong. It’s been stagnant for some time now, whereas at least there is some growth in the no. 2 economy (UK). Germany still has many socialist policies, whereas the UK is a little more capitalist.

RE: Euro nations

1. The Euro is not some idea which was founded by a bunch of utopists. It took more than 50 years to create it, so during that period, most gov’ts and nations knew what they could expect from it. Therefor the Euro is not something new, it dates from the 1955 Rome-treaty.

2. The Euro is a help for the European economy. We don’t need to spend extra money on transitions etc. The fact that the prices are not the same in the different memberstates can also be seen as an advantage. For example, it’s much cheaper for a Belgian to buy a car in Finland or Portugal. The dutch like to come to Belgium to buy groceries, but instead we like to cross borders to buy … uhmm … cheese 😀 (and some pot }>). It has been proven that European economy is much more stable when it is competitive. Europe exports more than it imports. The Euro can only make this easier, not only for Europeans but also for foreigners.

3. Britain will also join the Euro, maybe not this year, but not long after it. And so will Sweden and Denmark. Once Britain will have joined ‘Euroland’, many other non-EU nations will also use the Euro as an alternative for the dollar. Arab countries, (axis of evil), the maffia 😀

4. The Euro is here, and though some people want it to disappear, it won’t happen! It’s time to give up chauvenistic feelings and become realistic. Except Germany, the 14 other EU-economies are not strong enough to survive on their own. Joining the Euro does not mean you have to give up traditions: we don’t want to piss of the old folks who still believe in the fairy-tail of ‘monarchy’. Sooner or later, the Monarchs will also disappear, but we’ve got plenty of time, so let’s not worry about that and first focus on more important things.

RE: Euro nations

I don’t think you can compare regional differences within a country to international differences between countries. Regions have a lot more in common than countries do.

Also, the entire EU is undemocratic and corrupt. It absolutely has to be reformed before I would even think about closer links. As a tabloid once said – “Up Yours, Delors!”

The point about the Bank of England being comparble, accountability wise, to the ECB is incorrect. The Governor (Eddie George) is appointed by elected officials. A poorly performing Bank of England reflects badly on the Chancellor, hence there is strong indirect accountability. Not so with the ECB. Who the hell chose Wim Duisenberg?

Going back to my second paragraph, I find it quite silly that people are prepared to vote to get rid of democracy by ceding powers from a directly elected body to a corrupt mess in Brussels, Strasbourg etc..

RE: Euro nations

Of course Central Bank and euro is designed to act in global economic scale and all european countries have to coordinate their policies. I suppose its a lost of soveranity, but global economy means global and bigger objectives and results, specially to compite with the US and Japanese ones.

RE: Euro nations

1) im in favour

2) the differentials we see in the uk between regions are jsut what we’ll get i the euro zone

3) the ECB is unelected but so is the bank of england. both are chosen by our mysterious and dark goverment

my worries are that our economies are radically diffrent, for example exchage rate so convergin NOW would cause problems.

on the whole european issue as much as i like my european neighbours they seam corupt and dishonest in finacal dealings. the whole euro system props up inefficent farmers and that has to be ended in some form or antoher (see todays news). once we have a democartically acountable EU and commison i’ll be more happy.

in the long run i like the idea

rabie :9

RE: Euro nations

Yes, the practicalities seem to be OK.

But I am still concerned over soveirignty. I see interest rates as an important tool to manage economic growth, and obviously there is only one Euro-wide interest rate now. I remember a few years ago, Ireland needed to raise rates (Ireland was booming – the celtic tiger) but Germany needed lower raites, to increase growth. If they both had their own currency, it would be OK. But with the Euro, it is not possible.

I know that even in the same country, different regions want different rates – in the UK, London wants higher rates (to slow things down) but in the North, the opposite is true.

But putting region against region is different to putting country against country, isn’t it? There IS a loss of soveirignty there.

The fact that the ECB is unelected and not really accountable doesn’t help much!

Also, it is only logical that after the common currency there will be…common tax.

RE: Euro nations

The conversion has been automatic, and each individual has to use the calculator the first month to check the conversion. This wasn´t a problem over here. The problem is the indivual business and shops who match the prices rising them. It something was 12,35…..so let´s put 12,50 to be easier. In this case the consumers have the ability to boicott the shops and places which cause abuses. In the public sector and big companies, there weren´t problems at all. There was a huge fear that the country could be paralized in the beginning. It was amazing how people went to the bank on the 1st of january and started to use the new money without substantial problems.

RE: Euro nations

I live in England too and can only hope we never switch to the €uro. What concerns me about it is the fact that the change from the old currency to the new is not proportional in various areas – for example, someone’s hourly wage or salary may not be proportional to the cost of a loaf of bread during the switch. How do we know people aren’t/haven’t losing/lost money during the changeover??

RE: Euro nations

Things were smoother here than in the UK. People weren´t much concerned for the currency and didn´t interpret as a loss of sovernanity. I suppose due to pragmatical reasons. Money is a filthy piece of paper used for purchasing things and people interpreted that they were no more spanish for having the King on the notes.
For me wasn´t a problem neither, a unique currency for the whole planet would be just fine. People have got used to use it. We still make calculations. Despite this fact, prices has grown. In terms of inflation the rise hasn´t been significative. The economy is supposed to have grown due to the million of euros saved in the companies international exchanges (lost in exchanges). In terms of use, I have the portuguese frontier at an hour drive and it´s simply great and confortable to go with the same money. It has helped to balance prices in both sides of the frontier and to see why the same thing varies so much in the different countries.

RE: Euro nations

Fair question I suppose.

But I reckon the bigger issue is not the day to day practicalities (the Euro is probably quite handy). I am more concerned about the deeper economic and soverignty issues. Have any Euroland economies suffered as a direct result of the Euro?