Europe Is Corrupt

Just to add my 2 cents to this highly constructive discussion…

I’d like to know: On which criterias do they rank these nations? By knocking at one’s door, and ask if they fraud?

On which car the politicians drive?

Let me know… 😀

Yes, but the point is that Reebok only does these things because they can. A business is amoral – it merely seeks to make money. The task of regulating business and safeguarding individual rights, in any country, is the job of the government.

So the blame is at least 50/50 – Reebok do if through greed, but the governments involved also do it through either greed, tribal/religous malice, or incompetence (take your pic).

It’s funny that campaigners don’t ask for say, the Indonesian Government, to be held accountable but they don’t hesitate to condemn Reebok.

There are other big western comanies that are much worse than Shell… Shell has to go where the oil is… companies like Reebock go to where pay rates and safety standards are very low, where corners are cut and union is a dirty word… 12 hour shifts 7 days a week 52 weeks a year is standard…

Not to pick out Reebock they are merely one of many…
Such exploitation is about dramatically reducing costs… the western consumer doesn’t see any of those savings, pay $250 or more for a pair of shoes… I gues it pays to be in management…

Well if you ask Shell, I’m sure they would say they feel Nigeria is a ridiculous country and they would be over the moon if it were less corrupt. The Nigerian elite have always been corrupt and it would be unfair to lay the blame for that on Western oil companies. Whose fault was Biafra?

My comment about involving the UN was meant to be rhetorical. A lot of poverty in the world could be eliminated if governments in various countries were made more accountable and less corrupt.

As for Andersens…the firm as a whole was perfectly OK. But because it was a partnership, the partners can be sued jointly and severally for any liability – ie. if one partner is guilty, all of the partners have to pay for it. This liability is what brought down Andersens, not institutional corruption as the media seem to try to make out.

Ha, the stir-up has worked 😉

Most companes don’t give a toss about “helping” corrupt countries, they just want to safeguard their revenue. If you want to help them, tell the UN to do something for a change.[/b]

Can’t see the importance of the UN in this case. Where in the UN manifest does it say that it’s member states should refrain from corruption and stick with sound economic activities? Operation Alba in Albania only took place after the pyramid-scams had turned the country into anarchy, not while the process was still going on.

Also Arthur, I do take mild offence to your charaterisation of accountants.

It was not intended as such and i mildly apologise if i came across too harsh.

So what if Andersens were dodgy? Do you regard Dutch lawyers as bad, just because of the shenanigans in the OJ Simpson trial? I wouldn’t think so, and in the same manner you can’t use the Andersen/Enron failings to judge accountants from different countries. The UK had its own “mini Enron” many years ago (Guinness/Distillers, Polly Peck) and a lot of faults were fixed back then, though of course I’m not complacent.

One of the world’s largest and most renowned accounting firms is found out to be dodgy, and all you think is ‘sho what’? You’re in the business so you will be far better to see this in it’s true proportions, but to a layman like me it’s different. If a renowned Western firm can’t be trusted, who can? I don’t think “If Anderson’s bad, everyone is”, it’s far more subtle than that. I am perfectly well aware that not all accountants are on the same level, neither are lawyers or newspapers.

But where you usually know what you get from your newspaper (compare the Mirror with the Times) or a lawyer (a free pro-deo assigned attorney or an incredibly expensive keep-me-out-of-jail-at-any-cost lawyer OJ Simpson-style). I thought Anderson belonged to that part of accountancy which was sound. To a layman like me, it’s like finding out that Mercedes is actually selling Zastavas with a different label.

Also, you may be right that the amount of “dirty” American money dwarfs the amount of dirty Nigerian money. But we’re not talking about absolute amounts, we’re talking as a proportion of the economy. On that basis, the US is far more advanced than Nigeria. Otherwise, we’d have some country like Burkina Faso No. 1 in the world and countries like Japan and the US last!

Good point. But countries like Burkina Faso and Nigeria are economically far more dependent on exports (oil, cocoa, coffee) than the US is. The national economies of a lot of third world countries are completely dependent on foreign companies exploiting that nation’s resources. With this in mind, I don’t think Nigeria could keep up it’s level of corruption without Shell feeding that corrupt economical system. As a matter of fact, i can imagine Western multinationals prefer bribing the local tin-pot dictator a bit more rather than spending a lot more money on non-productive issues they might be required to do so by that country’s official law.

How about an attack from a different angle… this report is compiled by a german org. But Germany only rates 18th on the list… how can we trust them… I am a New Zealander after all and therefore more trustworthy (hahahahahhaahahahahaha)

You’re looking at it from the wrong angle Arthur. It’s a case of risk versus reward. Most companes don’t give a toss about “helping” corrupt countries, they just want to safeguard their revenue. If you want to help them, tell the UN to do something for a change.

Also Arthur, I do take mild offence to your charaterisation of accountants. So what if Andersens were dodgy? Do you regard Dutch lawyers as bad, just because of the shenanigans in the OJ Simpson trial? I wouldn’t think so, and in the same manner you can’t use the Andersen/Enron failings to judge accountants from different countries. The UK had its own “mini Enron” many years ago (Guinness/Distillers, Polly Peck) and a lot of faults were fixed back then, though of course I’m not complacent.

Also, you may be right that the amount of “dirty” American money dwarfs the amount of dirty Nigerian money. But we’re not talking about absolute amounts, we’re talking as a proportion of the economy. On that basis, the US is far more advanced than Nigeria. Otherwise, we’d have some country like Burkina Faso No. 1 in the world and countries like Japan and the US last!

Mongu,
just to stir things up a bit: your employer refuses to accept work from ‘corrupt countries’ unless you are paid an …ahum… special extra fee… you know, for the wife…? I can’t see how that policy towards countries with a less than perfect reputation (do remember that that’s what it’s all about here) is supportive of them clearing their reputation and/or corruption.

Likewise, i think corrupt countries could do with some assistance of some reliable accountancy firm. (Andersen and such :rolleyes: ). Yet with a policy like your firm uses, it wouldn’t be possible.

“Greece? They are corrupt as hell. If only they’d let their books checked by that incredibly reliable accountancy firm from the Isle of Man, i might consider investing there!”

What strikes me as odd to that list is that the US is still regarded this high, even after major scandals as Enron, WorldCom and US Food Services. Even if these prove to remain isolated cases (which IMHO is doubtful), the amount of money kept outside the books is far more than the last Nigerian government could ever forge/bankroll/withhold/whitewash/spend in Monaco.

Sure, but the survey is based on genralised views. NZ is less corrupt than Mexico, simple as that. What you draw from that is down to you.

Interesting… If I said mexicans are dishonest (based on this list) and would only do business with a Mexican company if they pay me triple my normal rate wouldn’t honest Mexican businessmen be justified in thinking the placing for New Zealand so high in the business honesty ratings was unfair… }>

(New Zealand is listed 2nd equal and Mexico is listed 57th equal).

I don’t think you can use such a list as a basis for business relationships… New Zealand Jails are quite full, with lots of dishonest people I certainly wouldn’t do business with.

Arthur, don’t be disingenous. Of course two countries can be ranked equally if they are level. That’s something you learn in the first half hour of any statistics course.

My title was just for a reaction! Interesting to see how badly the French do compared to their arch enemies the UK and US!

Two countries ranked 7th? Guess the list was compiled by asking companies which did the books for Enron & Co.

Mongu, somehow i don’t understand how you got to your ‘Europe is corrupt’ only by giving a list which shows that the fifteen current EU members are considered to be within the 31 least corrupt nations on this planet? Gee, this would mean some 165 countries around the world are considered more corrupt than the worst nation in the EU… wow, impressive indeed.

I thought you native speakers had an advantage on understanding the English language over us continentals. But i could be wrong.

I suggest uninstalling and reinstalling, that may sort out the corruption – if not, you may need to reformat.