Executed Convicts Honoured on CWGC Memorial

longshot,
Thankyou for the pictures,if they only knew what was ahead of them in “The War To End All Wars”
Cannon Fodder the lot of them it makes me so sad.

‘Shot at Dawn’….

Those ‘shot at dawn’ (WW1 only) were buried under CWGC headstones and all have since been pardoned, anyway.

Those who committed suicide (if serving) are buried under CWGC headstones and if bodies not found then they are on the appropriate CWGC memorial.

If you read on the net about the ‘shot at dawn’ cases apparently even the first case still presents memorial problems for the Shoreham, Kent Legion officials and some graves have been lost

No connection with this thread but I found these IWM shots of the 1914 Christmas truce interesting
http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205025418
http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205022085
http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205022267
http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205022262
http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205026891

Stangman.

I didn’t know that it had gone out again in another region, but am pleased if it helped to spread the message!

In the context of that programme we could only examine three of the cases.

Tangmere1940
Saw the piece on this on Inside Out this evening [BBC One in London i think ]
I thought you made the case for the removal of these three names

Private August SANGRET
Gunner Arthur KEMP
Private Theodore SCHURCH

from Brookwood Military Cemetery very well. Hopefully items like this in the media will help highlight this travesty.The statement from the relative of WAAF Miriam Deeley was especially moving.Pity at the end it was mentioned that the M.O.D had no intention of removing the names at this moment in time.

Andy join this forum explain your campaign and post there.

http://www.arrse.co.uk/

Make it clear that you are not a journalist looking for a cheap story though or you will get nowhere. HTH

If and when the Government e-petition is authorised, I will post details here.

Meanwhile, for interest, here are some of the villains who are “Remembered with Honour:

Private Arthur PEACH
Private August SANGRET
Gunner Arthur KEMP
Private David JENNINGS
L/Cpl Frederick AUSTIN
L/Cpl Walter CLAYTON
Private Cyril JOHNSON
Cpl Dudley RAYNER
Private Charles GAUTHIER
Private Terrence CASEY
Private Mervin McEWAN
Private John DAVIDSON
Sgt Ernest DIGBY
Private Horace GORDON
Private Arthur THOMPSON
Private Theodore SCHURCH
Private Charles RAYMOND
Bombadier Joseph CROSSLEY

Andy,

Count me in. Where do I sign?

Don

In my opinion the names of these convicted and executed murderers should be removed from the memorial at Brookwood Military Cemetery.

The opinions that matter most are the opinions of the families of the victims and the opinions of the families of those who were executed; all other opinions are of lesser importance. I’m sure I do not need to say which opinion I think should prevail.

Any talk about possible miscarriages of justice is irrelevant and a distraction from the real issue.

I’m in.

….What he said.

Baz

tornado64

There is little or no value in you arguing this point, all it is doing is upsetting all who read it.

A bit of advice; when you’re in a hole, stop digging.

I am told there was a piece about the murder of WAAF Miriam Deeley in todays Daily Mirror, but I have not seen it. Evidently reporting that the family are calling to have the name of Gunner Ernest Kemp removed from the memorial.

You really are turning into quite the murderers champion, Tornado. Before long I quite expect you will be telling us that it was the fault of the victims or that these despicable pieces of inhuman dross deserve to be remembered because they suffered capital punishment. No….don’t even go there.

You might want to read this, just in from a member of one of the victim’s families. They are elderly, not on the forum but have watched via a neighbours computer from the other side of the world:

“I am dismayed by the words of the person calling himself tornado84 (sic) and cannot quite comprehend his or her views. All I can tell you is that I am grateful for bringing this to the fore again and hope we can find a way to have these names expunged. As the nearest family member to XXXXXXX I regard it as my sacred duty to see it done before I leave this planet.”

Whilst in the company of those who apparently read these memorials, are the names of those ‘shot at dawn’ or who committed suicide whilst in the forces recorded?

and there lies the problem !! once it starts in todays whiney society where does it stop ???

once ones charged with murder are removed , it will be well they were shot for cowardice / shell shock , next it’ll be well this list did 90 days for fighting

and on and on till eventualy only the padres name is on the memorial !!

Those ‘shot at dawn’ (WW1 only) were buried under CWGC headstones and all have since been pardoned, anyway.

Those who committed suicide (if serving) are buried under CWGC headstones and if bodies not found then they are on the appropriate CWGC memorial.

Whilst in the company of those who apparently read these memorials, are the names of those ‘shot at dawn’ or who committed suicide whilst in the forces recorded?

In my opinion the names of these convicted and executed murderers should be removed from the memorial at Brookwood Military Cemetery.

The opinions that matter most are the opinions of the families of the victims and the opinions of the families of those who were executed; all other opinions are of lesser importance. I’m sure I do not need to say which opinion I think should prevail.

Any talk about possible miscarriages of justice is irrelevant and a distraction from the real issue.

I’m in.

Well said, I’m in.

Regards,

kev35

Thank you Paul.

It is not really worth any debate though, quite frankly, as its a waste of effort.

Either one accepts that the miscarriage of justice lies in the inscription of executed felons names alongside those who died honourably, or else one accepts the view that the miscarriage of justice lies in the fact that they were most likely executed in error and thus the 18 names should remain.

If one takes the former view, then maybe one would be moved to sign any petition campaigning to have them removed.

If one takes the flawed, flaky and lunatic second view, then one won’t sign.

Simple as that. Either you are in, or you are out.

I am simply trying to raise the profile of the cause, as it were, in the event of any e-petition being initiated. I’m not desperately interested, actually, in arguing about it. I think the case is a strong enough argument in its own right.

I am 100% with Andy Saunders on this. Make as much noise and fuss as you can and if I can help I will.

Tornado64

If I properly understand, it is that you are concerned about the quality of the evidence – except where confessions were obtained – implicit in the convictions of the people whose names are recorded at Brookwood.

I think that you are right to be suspicious. Perhaps all the Brookwood convictions are safe – that we’ll never know. What is known is that Criminal Justice underwent a convulsion of some magnitude because of the cases of Evans, Bentley and possibly Hanratty. None of these were in any way connected with Brookwood.

It was decided that the collection of evidence, the examination of that evidence and the decision to proceed or not was not to be left in the responsibility of the Police. Why? Because it was felt that in certain instances that involved the death or injury of a policeman/woman or, in other instances where, for example, reputations were at stake the Police would be tempted to tamper with evidence. The ambiguity of Craig’s shout to Bentley: “Let him have it” should have been enough to exempt Bentley not from conviction but from execution. The result was a travesty.

I won’t claim that the present system is any better. The Police now collect evidence so the opportunity for tampering – accidental or deliberate – is still there. This evidence is passed to the Crown Prosecution Service who then decide on its merits and having decided, proceed or not with a prosecution.

Perhaps Tornado’s suspicions might have some foundation. They might have been totally unfounded if threefold mutually supporting evidence had to be in place before securing a conviction:

1. Forensic evidence
2. Eye witness
3. Circumstantial

Such now is the reckless disarray of our Criminal Justice system that convictions for serious crimes have been secured on the presentation of dubious circumstantial evidence.

One of the three tests above, was not available during the time in question.

John Green

Again, you’re assuming all the cases had the same (lack) of evidence.
I’m sure there were many?most cases where they had the guy “dead to rights”.

that’s just the thing though , there is no such thing as dead to rights there is however sure as you can be with certain evidence

there was a recent case of a lad nearly getting charged with murder through D.N.A evidence ( that is obviously non falible )

luckily a copper overheard someone bragging in a pub about planting a cigarette butt to shift the blame otherwise someone innocent would have been serving time

some things are often not as clear cut as we delude ourselves into thinking they are