F-125 Frigate questions

The current world-wide market is moving to:
a) multi-role auxiliaries (amphibs with RAS and sealift functionality for example).
b) OPVs of various armament levels (including in German exports); increased EEZ control demand
c) renewal of conventional fleets, with new emphasis on multi-role capability, and land-attack.

F125 fits into b) as a top-level tie-off, with limited capability in c).

Well thats a really useful comment isnt it, the world wide market is moving towards everything……….with that level of insight it is hardly surprising that German shipyards have lost so much ground to Spain and France in recent years.:rolleyes:

And your analysis is aweful, F125 does no fit into either of those categorys, it is a Germany specific hybrid.

(little side-note: the above is pretty much verbatim from a TKMS Surface Division board member)

Dont try and name drop, this is an internet forum, you could be anyone and claim anything so name dropping is petty pathetic and pointless.

The current world-wide market is moving to:
a) multi-role auxiliaries (amphibs with RAS and sealift functionality for example).
b) OPVs of various armament levels (including in German exports); increased EEZ control demand
c) renewal of conventional fleets, with new emphasis on multi-role capability, and land-attack.

F125 fits into b) as a top-level tie-off, with limited capability in c).

(little side-note: the above is pretty much verbatim from a TKMS Surface Division board member)

The portfolio is not mandated by what the export customers want, but what they might want, once you prod them in the right direction.

A well-rounded portfolio, in particular in the strong points of export (frigates, submarines) is seen as necessary to compete – hence the F125 is in.
Putting the F125 design into the portfolio isn’t a compromise by the German Navy, it would be a compromise for a prospective buyer. Much like with a F124.

If you have an organic shipbuilding industry, you rarely if ever do “compromises”, internationally. You don’t select your ships from the portfolio of your industry anyway (unless you’re short of cash) – instead you go and hand em a 1000+ page requirements draft.

Or do you see e.g. the Type 45, LCS or FREMM being designed based on their export chances?

In the case of FREMM, yes I do. Hence the extreme flexibility. Your knowledge of warship export is woeful, even a cursory glance at recent warship export procurements shows that there is little place for the F125. Virtually all such procurements have been of (as you very poorly phrase it) ‘conventional warfare ships’ and amphibious vessels, not hybrids.

The below is what I have been saying all along and it proves that you are just repeating what I say and trying to argue for the sake of it;

‘If you have an organic shipbuilding industry, you rarely if ever do “compromises”, internationally. You don’t select your ships from the portfolio of your industry anyway (unless you’re short of cash) – instead you go and hand em a 1000+ page requirements draft.’

Start reading and stop trolling.

The portfolio is not mandated by what the export customers want, but what they might want, once you prod them in the right direction.

A well-rounded portfolio, in particular in the strong points of export (frigates, submarines) is seen as necessary to compete – hence the F125 is in.
Putting the F125 design into the portfolio isn’t a compromise by the German Navy, it would be a compromise for a prospective buyer. Much like with a F124.

If you have an organic shipbuilding industry, you rarely if ever do “compromises”, internationally. You don’t select your ships from the portfolio of your industry anyway (unless you’re short of cash) – instead you go and hand em a 1000+ page requirements draft.

Or do you see e.g. the Type 45, LCS or FREMM being designed based on their export chances?

You miss the point somewhat. F125 is the only ship that TKMS can offer (in that size class) as a MIO/surveillance/land-attack multi-role ship with organic naval infantry and SF support, and the only ship in the TKMS portfolio optimized for extremely high mission times (2 years in-theater, 210+ days at sea per year).
Neither Meko-D nor Meko-X offer similar capabilities in those fields, they’re paper exercises for “conventional” warfare.

No I dont, you are just arguing for the sake of it.

How many export customers want that capability?:rolleyes:

The Germans have more than enough design capacity and existing products to not have to compromise the F125 for the German navy.

Yes that is the point, thankyou for pointlessly repeating it with far more information than was actually required.:rolleyes:

You miss the point somewhat. F125 is the only ship that TKMS can offer (in that size class) as a MIO/surveillance/land-attack multi-role ship with organic naval infantry and SF support, and the only ship in the TKMS portfolio optimized for extremely high mission times (2 years in-theater, 210+ days at sea per year).
Neither Meko-D nor Meko-X offer similar capabilities in those fields, they’re paper exercises for “conventional” warfare.

pls don’t knock someone for being too informative 😉

The point is that Germany itself doesn’t use the MEKO line. German ships (F123, F124, F125, K130) are customized ships derived from MEKO and using MEKO technology, but never themselves part of the MEKO portfolio. MEKO is essentially OTS, and Germany simply doesn’t compromise to buying OTS.

However, in particular F124 has been targetted as a potential export – without success so far (Australia, Greece). This is interesting in particular as it directly targets TKMS own prospects with the Meko-D and Meko-X, which are purely draft designs and have never been in any tenders so far really.

A “F125” for the Netherlands would of course look decidedly different in outfit. If they ever went for it (unlikely), a strike-length Mk41 would be likely for example, to support Tomahawks. EADS components would be significantly reduced and replaced by Thales components. Instead of 33-foot RIBs, LCVP Mk5s could be installed. And so on.

I also wouldn’t be suprised btw if TKMS offered a somewhat larger F125 derivative for C2 for example, if that ever takes off. With similar modifications as above.

MEKO-D is essentially a follow-up design to MEKO A200, and is marketed as a similar-sized but better-equipped alternative to the A200. However, the design is by now 6 years old, and has failed to attract even remote interest (not that there is noticable marketing at all!).
MEKO-X is essentially the TKMS attempt to break into the large destroyer market, to have something in their portfolio comparable to Type 45 or Horizon. Unless a customer specifically asks TKMS for a tender in a ship class of this size, it’s doubtful MEKO X will ever be more than a paper design, just like MEKO CSL.

Actively marketed MEKO designs are A100, A200, Sentinel, Guardian. F124 currently serves as a top-off for AAW to the portfolio, since the only other MEKO design for that is the MEKO X paper design. F125 can similarly fit into the portfolio as a top-off for MIO/surveillance roles above in particular the Sentinel and Guardian OPVs.
We’ll probably also see a more modularized multi-role design actively marketed sometime soon in the lower bracket (ie below A100), to accomodate the newest BWB/Marine fade of MMC ships for K131 (similar to how TKMS fired the first shot with the “Meko Multirole Auxiliary” in their MHD/MRD portfolio for JSS).

Yes that is the point, thankyou for pointlessly repeating it with far more information than was actually required.:rolleyes:

Thus there is no need to compromise the needs of the German navy in order to satisfy the fantasies of internet fanboys.

The point is that Germany itself doesn’t use the MEKO line. German ships (F123, F124, F125, K130) are customized ships derived from MEKO and using MEKO technology, but never themselves part of the MEKO portfolio. MEKO is essentially OTS, and Germany simply doesn’t compromise to buying OTS.

However, in particular F124 has been targetted as a potential export – without success so far (Australia, Greece). This is interesting in particular as it directly targets TKMS own prospects with the Meko-D and Meko-X, which are purely draft designs and have never been in any tenders so far really.

A “F125” for the Netherlands would of course look decidedly different in outfit. If they ever went for it (unlikely), a strike-length Mk41 would be likely for example, to support Tomahawks. EADS components would be significantly reduced and replaced by Thales components. Instead of 33-foot RIBs, LCVP Mk5s could be installed. And so on.

I also wouldn’t be suprised btw if TKMS offered a somewhat larger F125 derivative for C2 for example, if that ever takes off. With similar modifications as above.

MEKO-D is essentially a follow-up design to MEKO A200, and is marketed as a similar-sized but better-equipped alternative to the A200. However, the design is by now 6 years old, and has failed to attract even remote interest (not that there is noticable marketing at all!).
MEKO-X is essentially the TKMS attempt to break into the large destroyer market, to have something in their portfolio comparable to Type 45 or Horizon. Unless a customer specifically asks TKMS for a tender in a ship class of this size, it’s doubtful MEKO X will ever be more than a paper design, just like MEKO CSL.

Actively marketed MEKO designs are A100, A200, Sentinel, Guardian. F124 currently serves as a top-off for AAW to the portfolio, since the only other MEKO design for that is the MEKO X paper design. F125 can similarly fit into the portfolio as a top-off for MIO/surveillance roles above in particular the Sentinel and Guardian OPVs.
We’ll probably also see a more modularized multi-role design actively marketed sometime soon in the lower bracket (ie below A100), to accomodate the newest BWB/Marine fade of MMC ships for K131 (similar to how TKMS fired the first shot with the “Meko Multirole Auxiliary” in their MHD/MRD portfolio for JSS).

I kind of think the entire MEKO concept was to build and market a family of modular warships that can be tailored to varying customer needs. The whole MEKO thing is the business of selling warships.

You got the concept but are unable to make the vital link. The Meko family has more than enough designs and variations to fulfill the export requirement, Mek-100, Meko-200 and the Meko-D/X as concepts for the future. Thus there is no need to compromise the needs of the German navy in order to satisfy the fantasies of internet fanboys. If ThyssenKrupp wants to compete on the international market it does not need to offer the F-125 unless someone really wants it.

The only ship the Ministry of Defence has planned to buy in the near future (untill 2015) is a Joint Support Ship.

As the first F125 won’t be delivered before 2013/2014, we’re not talking about the “near future” anyway, but about the 2015-2020 timeframe (last F125 for Germany around 2017/2018).

With all due respect why even bother trying to export it? Given the export and design portfolio that German yards have I see no reason whatsoever to market the F-125 on the international market unless there happens to be a country come along with very convergent needs.

I kind of think the entire MEKO concept was to build and market a family of modular warships that can be tailored to varying customer needs. The whole MEKO thing is the business of selling warships.

cheers everyone

With all due respect why even bother trying to export it? Given the export and design portfolio that German yards have I see no reason whatsoever to market the F-125 on the international market unless there happens to be a country come along with very convergent needs.

……
Well, there’s that Mer et Marine article from last September according to which the Netherlands are “interested”.

Well, the interest from the Netherlands might be Thales supplying a radar. Or getting Germany involved in the Vulcano project.

The only ship the Ministry of Defence has planned to buy in the near future (untill 2015) is a Joint Support Ship.

7,000t? The last time I checked it was around 5,500 – 5,600t full load, though I don’t remember whether those figures were official or not.

Latest (semi-official, TKMS) figure is around 6,800t. The design constantly grew during the initial phase, initially it was 5,600t or something like that – then 6,000t, then 6,400t, then 6,800t.

The 6,800t figure has been around for about a year, and is in the final draft design.

i guess that there will be no export of the f-125.

Well, there’s that Mer et Marine article from last September according to which the Netherlands are “interested”.

However (!my speculation!) if you consider that the place forward of the bridge was supposed to house the GMRLS and at least in the “export version” will house the VLS it MAY be possible to refit VLS at a later stage if the operational requirements call for it.

i guess that there will be no export of the f-125.

Except it’s closer to 7000ts.

7,000t? The last time I checked it was around 5,500 – 5,600t full load, though I don’t remember whether those figures were official or not.

Except it’s closer to 7000ts.

Another European 5000ts vessel without weapons!