F3D-1 vs MiG-15

US Navy Article – Air War At Night over Korea

A little light reading:
http://www.history.navy.mil/a-korea/cmay53-52.pdf

…geoff

US Navy Article – Air War At Night over Korea

A little light reading:
http://www.history.navy.mil/a-korea/cmay53-52.pdf

…geoff

All engagements between MiG-15’s and F3D’s in Korea occurred at night, as already mentioned. So, aerodynamic performance measures were secondary except, F3D’s could not close from behind on MiG’s which were going at full speed, and F3D’s pursued by MiG’s had to evade rather than outrun them.

Maybe this is where the ‘manueverability’ point comes from, but it wasn’t as if the F3D’s were out turning the MiG’s in a daylight dogfight. Rather, the MiG’s generally relied on ground control radar and searchlights to find the US targets (primarily B-29’s the US nightfighters were trying to protect) and were unlikely to be able to follow a target into a sharp turn and maintain visual contact, even if the MiG was aerodynamically capable of it.

The much bigger difference was that the F3D had AI radar, and this was not deployed on MiG-15’s in Korea. Also, the F3D had a tail warning radar, a distinct advantage it held over the USAF F-94B which was also used on similar missions. But OTOH the MiG’s ground control radars were much closer to the actions, typically near the Yalu, and again they were supported by (also radar directed) searchlights. The US nightfighters were also supported by their own ground control radars, but they were further away.

F3D’s were credited with 5 MiG-15’s destroyed in night combat, however only one of those is unambiguously confirmed in Soviet accounts; at least one other that was claimed destroyed was seriously damaged; one incident where both MiG’s and F3D’s claimed a victory, and Soviet and Chinese ground forces observed an a/c fall in flames, is a mystery so far since neither side reported a loss in its then-secret records, as far as I’ve been able to determine.

One F3D, of a USN detachment operating with the main USMC F3D unit VMF(N)-513 , was believed by the US to have been destroyed by MiG’s based on radio transmissions from the crew before the a/c disappeared, early hours of July 2, 1953. However, there is no Soviet or Chinese claim for such a victory. This is highly unusual. AFAIK every other single loss of UN a/c in air combat in Korea is matched by a known claim on the other side (usually more than one, often a lot more!). The 298th Fighter Regiment (Soviet night MiG unit at the time) recorded operations and claims in this general period but not that night, known Chinese accounts only claim one MiG night victory by them during the war (corresponding to an unsuccessful attack recorded by an F-94), and the NK’s are not believed to have operated MiG’s as nightfighters during the war.

Minor point, the F3D version used in Korea was F3D-2.

Joe

All engagements between MiG-15’s and F3D’s in Korea occurred at night, as already mentioned. So, aerodynamic performance measures were secondary except, F3D’s could not close from behind on MiG’s which were going at full speed, and F3D’s pursued by MiG’s had to evade rather than outrun them.

Maybe this is where the ‘manueverability’ point comes from, but it wasn’t as if the F3D’s were out turning the MiG’s in a daylight dogfight. Rather, the MiG’s generally relied on ground control radar and searchlights to find the US targets (primarily B-29’s the US nightfighters were trying to protect) and were unlikely to be able to follow a target into a sharp turn and maintain visual contact, even if the MiG was aerodynamically capable of it.

The much bigger difference was that the F3D had AI radar, and this was not deployed on MiG-15’s in Korea. Also, the F3D had a tail warning radar, a distinct advantage it held over the USAF F-94B which was also used on similar missions. But OTOH the MiG’s ground control radars were much closer to the actions, typically near the Yalu, and again they were supported by (also radar directed) searchlights. The US nightfighters were also supported by their own ground control radars, but they were further away.

F3D’s were credited with 5 MiG-15’s destroyed in night combat, however only one of those is unambiguously confirmed in Soviet accounts; at least one other that was claimed destroyed was seriously damaged; one incident where both MiG’s and F3D’s claimed a victory, and Soviet and Chinese ground forces observed an a/c fall in flames, is a mystery so far since neither side reported a loss in its then-secret records, as far as I’ve been able to determine.

One F3D, of a USN detachment operating with the main USMC F3D unit VMF(N)-513 , was believed by the US to have been destroyed by MiG’s based on radio transmissions from the crew before the a/c disappeared, early hours of July 2, 1953. However, there is no Soviet or Chinese claim for such a victory. This is highly unusual. AFAIK every other single loss of UN a/c in air combat in Korea is matched by a known claim on the other side (usually more than one, often a lot more!). The 298th Fighter Regiment (Soviet night MiG unit at the time) recorded operations and claims in this general period but not that night, known Chinese accounts only claim one MiG night victory by them during the war (corresponding to an unsuccessful attack recorded by an F-94), and the NK’s are not believed to have operated MiG’s as nightfighters during the war.

Minor point, the F3D version used in Korea was F3D-2.

Joe

The picture is from the series ‘Dogfights’ normally shown on Discovery or Military History channel in the UK but it is very one sided for US types to be honest it said the F4 was better armed for dog fighting than the MIG 21 but the MIG has a gun where the F4 did not (until the E) and the missiles carried by the F4 were extremely unreliable and took too long to set up and you still had to cross your fingers if the missile will hit or not.

Plus the F3D kills were mostly at night and it was built to escort bombers at night where the MIG was not.

curlyboy

The picture is from the series ‘Dogfights’ normally shown on Discovery or Military History channel in the UK but it is very one sided for US types to be honest it said the F4 was better armed for dog fighting than the MIG 21 but the MIG has a gun where the F4 did not (until the E) and the missiles carried by the F4 were extremely unreliable and took too long to set up and you still had to cross your fingers if the missile will hit or not.

Plus the F3D kills were mostly at night and it was built to escort bombers at night where the MIG was not.

curlyboy

Unsure if this will help, but interesting reading anyway, http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?t=103005

Unsure if this will help, but interesting reading anyway, http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?t=103005