F86 VS MIG17

Oddly, both aircraft had similar sized and configured engines. Comes of being descended from the original Whittle designed centrifugal flow engines that were sent to the US during the war, and traded to the Russians after the war. Performances were enhanced by swept wings and other aerodynamic refinements.

The main reason for the difference in fuselage geometry is IIRC – on the Sabre the intake duct goes under the cockpit while on the Mig it is bifurcated and rundown the side.

Essentially the Mig17 was the Mig15 developed to what the initial design concept wanted and including the lessons learnt from Korea. These aircraft all date from before area rule was recognised, but at their performance levels it was not a problem.

The Mig17 was a real workhorse, and overall was a match for most western fighters of the period and in its class. It certainly put a dent in the American’s opinion of their technological superiority over North Vietnam.

It’s strange, the Mig17 was the most effective fighter the NVAF had,
even though it was one of the oldest.
It’s great manuverability, and powerful guns made it a tough opponent.

PLANEGUY51

Mig17 VS Hunter

How would the MIG-17 have stacked against a Hunter?

Tough call.
Performance wise, they are very close.
I guess the Mig would have an edge in some situations, due to it’s afterburner.
A lot of it would depend on the skill of the pilots.

PLANEGUY51

F-86/MIG 17

The other contender waiting for its turn at the airshow! F-86 FU-222. OAFB. Aug-2005.Via C/w.com

The US used the German research data to design the F86.
It appears the Russians used the data from “their” German scientists.
They also purchased a Nene engine from the British, and copied it.PLANEGUY51

Oddly, both aircraft had similar sized and configured engines. Comes of being descended from the original Whittle designed centrifugal flow engines that were sent to the US during the war, and traded to the Russians after the war. Performances were enhanced by swept wings and other aerodynamic refinements.

The main reason for the difference in fuselage geometry is IIRC – on the Sabre the intake duct goes under the cockpit while on the Mig it is bifurcated and rundown the side.

Essentially the Mig17 was the Mig15 developed to what the initial design concept wanted and including the lessons learnt from Korea. These aircraft all date from before area rule was recognised, but at their performance levels it was not a problem.

The Mig17 was a real workhorse, and overall was a match for most western fighters of the period and in its class. It certainly put a dent in the American’s opinion of their technological superiority over North Vietnam.

How would the MIG-17 have stacked against a Hunter?

Interesting to see the aircraft together and from a similar angle like this – shows a fair amount about their differing design philosophies. The MiG seems quite bulged aft of the wing roots while the F86 is more slender. Is this rudimentary, design-by-feel area ruling or just the result of an engine with a bigger cross section.

Did Mikoyan-Gurevich have access to axial flow engines by then or was it using RR Nene-derivatives?

The US used the German research data to design the F86.
It appears the Russians used the data from “their” German scientists.
They also purchased a Nene engine from the British, and copied it.

PLANEGUY51

Interesting to see the aircraft together and from a similar angle like this – shows a fair amount about their differing design philosophies. The MiG seems quite bulged aft of the wing roots while the F86 is more slender. Is this rudimentary, design-by-feel area ruling or just the result of an engine with a bigger cross section.

Did Mikoyan-Gurevich have access to axial flow engines by then or was it using RR Nene-derivatives?

Mig 17F #1611 resting before the AirShow at OAFB transient ramp. Aug-2005. Indeed both the F-86 and Mig-17s put an exciting display. Mig buff

Nice picture.
Thanks.
PLANEGUY51

Mig 17F #1611 resting before the AirShow at OAFB transient ramp. Aug-2005. Indeed both the F-86 and Mig-17s put an exciting display. Mig buff

Mig and Sabre

F-86/Mig Folks:

Somewhere in the US. c. 2005 Photo Via J. Akerboon

Nice Picture!!!!
Two great evenly matched adversaries.
Thanks.

F-86/MIG 17

F-86/Mig Folks:

Somewhere in the US. c. 2005 Photo Via J. Akerboon

Very much doubt it. Sabres operated out of Ubon for Thai air defense until 1968 but never in Vietnam. Overflying Cambodia or Laos was a BIG, BIG political no, no for Australians. You may be thinking RAAF Canberras.

The caption for the picture I saw must have said something like Southeast
Asia, and I thought Vietnam.

Thanks,
PLANEGUY51

Straits of Taiwan

Late model F-86s of the RoCAF (Nationalist) met Communist PRCAF MiG-17s is action over the Straits of Taiwan in 1958/59. Here’s a brief extract from:

http://home.sprynet.com/~anneled/ColdWar.html

14 August 1958 Republic of China Air Force F-86F Sabre pilots Ping-Chun Chin and Chung-Li Li each shot down a People’s Republic of China PLAAF MiG-17 Fresco. Hsien-Wu Liu shared a MiG-17 with Fu-The Pan. One F-86F (307) failed to return from this engagement.

25 August 1958 Republic of China Air Force F-86 Sabre pilots Tien-En Chiang and Hsu-Hsiang Ku each shot down a People’s Republic of China PLAAF MiG-17 Fresco.

8 September 1958 Republic of China Air Force F-86 Sabre pilots Ping-Chun Chin, Yi-Chien Li, Chin-Chung Liang, Chung-Tsi Yu and Wai-Ming Chu each shot down a People’s Republic of China PLAAF MiG-17 Fresco, while Hsien-Wu Liu shot down two MiG-17s. PLAAF pilot Zhang Yi Lin shot down an F-86.

18 September 1958 Republic of China Air Force F-86 Sabre pilots Wan-Li Lin, Yang-Chung Lu, Che-Shing Mao, Tzu-Wan Sun, Kuang-Hsing Tung and Hsin-Yeh Liu each shot down a People’s Republic of China PLAAF MiG-17 Fresco over Haicheng in Guangdong Province. PLAAF pilot Chang Zhu You shot down an F-86.

24 September 1958 Republic of China Air Force F-86 Sabre pilots Jing-Chuen Chen, Chun-Hsein Fu, Jie-Tsu Hsia, Shu-Yuen Li, Ta-Peng Ma, Hong-Yan Sung and Yi-Chiang Chien each shot down one People’s Republic of China PLAAF MiG-17 Fresco, except Chien, who shot down two. Tasi-Chuen Liu shared a MiG-17 with Tang Jie-Min and Hsin-Yung Wang shared a MiG-17 with Yuen-Po Wang. In this air battle, one of the AIM-9B Sidewinder missiles fired by the F-86s hit a MiG-17, but its warhead did not explode. The MiG-17 recovered safely to its base and the missile was safely extracted. The missile was delivered to the Soviet Union and from there was sent to the Toropov engineering office to be copied. The end product of this process being the K-13 (AA-2 Atoll), long the most prolific Soviet air-to-air missile.

10 October 1958 Republic of China Air Force F-86F Sabre pilots Nai-Chun Chang, Teng-Chung Ting, Chuan-Hsu Yeh and Cheng Lu each shot down a People’s Republic of China PLAAF MiG-17 Fresco. One F-86F was damaged by debris from an exploding MiG-17. The pilot bailed out and was taken captive. He was released on June 30th, 1959.

5 July 1959 Four Republic of China Air Force F-86 Sabres battled 24 People’s Republic of China PLAAF MiG-17 Frescos, over the Straits of Taiwan, claiming two.

16 February 1960 Four Republic of China Air Force F-86 Sabres engaged 20 PLAAF MiG-17 Frescos, over the Straits of Taiwan, claiming one as shot down.

You can draw your own conclusions as to the relative capabilities and training of the pilots, but I think the Nationalists had a major advantage in the early-model Sidewinder missiles used in at least some of these engagements.

…geoff

I was thinking.
How would the F86 have done against the MIG17?
Anyone have any ideas?

PLANEGUY51

I think the F86 may have come off second best. The Mig 17 was a very good fighter and had both the edge in speed and manoeverability. Plus its heavy cannon armament was quite lethal.

There is a comment by a Syrian pilot flying Mig17s against Israeli aircraft in the Yom Kippur War. He went into battle thinking that the Israeli Phantoms would make mince meat of him. What he found was that he if he got in close the Israeli jets weren’t such a problem.

Certainly in North Vietnam the NVAF pilots built up some good kill totals against the American fighter bombers and the Mig was able to outfly the AAMs. Pure fighters like the Crusader were a different kettle of fish though, but they were a generation ahead of the Mig.

One wonders about how good the Australian Avon engined Sabre might have been in combat. Best performance of all the Sabre family, but IMHO rather a waste of the taxpayers’ dollars. By the time the RAAF finally got them after that long running saga of designing a whole new fuselage, fighter design had moved well into Mach1+ designs.

We would have been better sticking to the standard F86E or F and then transitioning earlier to the next generation – we could simply have bought them of the shelf. As I recall the RAAF wanted to try the same trick of re-engining on the Mirage – fortunately that got stopped or given the snail like manner in which we Australians make military decisions we’d still be awaiting delivery of them.

I have seen pictures of RAAF Sabres flying over Vietnam

Very much doubt it. Sabres operated out of Ubon for Thai air defense until 1968 but never in Vietnam. Overflying Cambodia or Laos was a BIG, BIG political no, no for Australians. You may be thinking RAAF Canberras.

Migs and Sabres

I was musing yesterday that during the Vietnam War the Americans initially had a fair ammount of difficulty against the MiG-17. As we are all aware this nessecitated a radical change in training for fighter pilots to bring back ACM and stop the reliance on missiles.

During the Vietnam the RAAF was tasked with protecting UBON RTAFB and the Thai border using CAC CA-27 Sabre Mk 32. These aircraft had half again more power that the F-86E/F because of the RR Avon (IIRC only about maybe 50% of the airframe was common) and were armed with 2 x 30mm Aden guns and 2 x AIM-9B Sidewinders. The RAAF also never lost it’s ACM training or ability.

Whilst there was no “reported” contacts between these aircraft I think the Sabre Mk 32 would have be the answer to take on MiG-17 and probably would have faired better the the F-4 (at least until the F-4 got the while BVR / AIM-7 thing worked out).

Flame suit on 🙂

Excellent post Spiteful.
I agree, the Sabre MK 32 would have been a good match for the MIG17.
The F8 Crusader was called the “Mig Master”.
The F8 was designed for dogfighting, and shot down 19 Migs, while losing
only 3 F8’s.
Another reason for it’s good record, was the Crusader pilots continued
to practice ACM, after the advent of missles.
You also inadvertantly answered a question that’s been bugging me for years.
I have seen pictures of RAAF Sabres flying over Vietnam, but could find no
further information on it.
You made my day my friend.

Have a good one.
PLANEGUY51

I was musing yesterday that during the Vietnam War the Americans initially had a fair ammount of difficulty against the MiG-17. As we are all aware this nessecitated a radical change in training for fighter pilots to bring back ACM and stop the reliance on missiles.

During the Vietnam the RAAF was tasked with protecting UBON RTAFB and the Thai border using CAC CA-27 Sabre Mk 32. These aircraft had half again more power that the F-86E/F because of the RR Avon (IIRC only about maybe 50% of the airframe was common) and were armed with 2 x 30mm Aden guns and 2 x AIM-9B Sidewinders. The RAAF also never lost it’s ACM training or ability.

Whilst there was no “reported” contacts between these aircraft I think the Sabre Mk 32 would have be the answer to take on MiG-17 and probably would have faired better the the F-4 (at least until the F-4 got the while BVR / AIM-7 thing worked out).

Flame suit on 🙂