FAA Aircraft Serial Query

Thanks Gents, I still haven’t matched a known serial number to an airframe, but I did find something interesting in the Australian National Archives. There is a file designating(with Coordinates) a late war/post war dumping ground in an area of ocean south of Sydney. The file does not specifically mention Aircraft, but does list other war suplus materiels that were dumped(in tons), the materiel is predominantly explosives/munitions and chemical weapons. Given the official nature and exacting details of this file, I believe the lendlease(cant explain the Barracudas) FAA aircraft to have been disposed of in this area. I have yet to locate anything about the South east Queensland Dumping grounds, that have actually yielded a FAA Corsair. But feel confident that some records must exist.

After the discussion on the other thread…a few more. Hopefully.

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1945: HMS PIONEER ditching planes off Sydney after WWII

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Barracuda being ditched from HMS Pioneer, late 1945

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Dumped Wildcat, possibly from HMS Searcher

Found another photo which is linked into this subject.

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From http://www.hms-vengeance.co.uk/page5.htm

Caption says Brand new lend/lease Corsair, pushed over side, early 1946, with the implication that it was ditched from HMS Vengeance (Pacific Fleet Code ‘A’) although the ‘T’ on the tail would make it from 1851NAS on HMS Venerable; interestingly the squadron was on Vengeance from 11/6/46, in Australian waters, until it sailed for the UK, disbanding on arrival at Devonport, 13/8/46. There is mention of at least one Corsair (KD738, ex 1850NAS) disembarking to Gosport 12/8/46, which illustrates that not all the type were ditched over the side in the Tropics…
I suspect this one was transferred to Vengeance and retained its 1851NAS Venerable markings until disposed of overboard, a little later in 1946 than the ‘early’ it is captioned.

Anyone got anymore? Please?

Thanks for the link to an interesting site. The roundels appear to be standard wartime ones, so perhaps there’s just a little “glare” exaggerating the white in that loading view. You can see BPF and Indian Ocean Fleet roundels in other photos.

If you look at other images on the Columbo Racecourse pages there are other Barracudas with similar markings – I’m assuming they had just arrived from Britain and hadn’t been allotted to a squadron yet. Not found anything to indicate that they were dispatched in ‘red-less’ markings, and the colour scheme remained the same (for Barracuda, at least).

Fascinating picture, in that the Barracuda seems to have gained postwar roundels despite the early date – or is that a yellow surround making them very distinctive?

It’s difficult to see why the FAA was dumping British aircraft, as they must have had some scrap value ashore. There is at least one reference in the WW2 book to a Barracuda being dumped in the UK, although this is not normally specified.

Then I’m sorry to inform you that this ‘idiot’ and the other original co-author are already hard at work at producing the fully revised, corrected and updated Second Edition of this ‘arcane subject’. Best you get selling your copy now while it’s still worth something (thinks – I wonder how much my perfect condition double-signed First Edition is now worth?)

Incidentally, copies of the last in the series – on FAA helicopters – are still available. Maybe time to buy up the remaining stock as a nice little nest egg?

Lee

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-listing/0851302327/ref=dp_olp_used_mbc?ie=UTF8&condition=used

£175 to £3,000

There doesn’t seem to have been any similar ditching campaign off Ceylon…

Knew I’d find something, sometime…

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HMS QUEEN loading Barracuda fuselages from barges in Colombo Harbour in January 1946. The aircraft are for dumping at sea

For bigger image: http://www.royalnavyresearcharchive.org.uk/FAA-Bases/Images/Photos/Colombo_Photos/Howlett_Colombo_11.jpg

Lots of interesting images from Columbo Racecourse, involving Barracuda – http://www.royalnavyresearcharchive.org.uk/FAA-Bases/ColomboAlbum.htm#.U3EOyYGICSo
Site looks interesting, but still under construction…

Grandad was a line man. Nice cod and lobster out there, so I’m told.

The tower itself sits on the Nab rock, which is just under the surface at high tide, and is at the Eastern end of the Solent marking the deep water channel entrance. The depth in the area is 20-23 metres and is fairly fast flowing during tides (for example, Submarine HMS/m A1 was lost as an unmanned underwater target in 1911 at a known location just off Selsey Bill. When it was eventually discovered in 1989 it was some five miles from its loss site in Bracklesham Bay due to the known strong currents in the area).
Frankly I’d be surprised if there was anything left and what there is probably drifted a great deal before bedding down in the sea bed. Not sure where they are dredging shingle from at the moment but it has been out that way and there hasn’t been any reports of ‘stuff’ being found.

Does this suggest that the Nab Tower would make an interesting site for dive archaeology? Or are the waters too dangerous? Perhaps a separate question for this forum.

Thanks Graham and Lee, I know from experience that the USAAF Individual Aircraft History Cards(IAHC), held on microfilm at the National Air and Space Museum in Washington, state when an aircraft went to a foreign country and the port that it departed from. They do not record any history of the aircraft’s service in the foreign air service. I have only looked at cards of aircraft that were written off/Struck off charge/scrapped whilst with the foreign air service. I am aware of USAAF aircraft that were allocated to the RAAF, served with the RAAF and were returned to the USAAF before wars end, I’m not sure if the IAHC would reflect this return to US service.

Lee, do you think all the FAA aircraft serials sent too Australia in 1945 can be taken as having been struck off charge(dumped)?

Thanks again. A very interesting subject.

Yet other methods of destruction were used elsewhere. For example, B-24s and P-51s in India were simply scrapped where they were. Though not entirely so, in the case of the B-24s. There doesn’t seem to have been any similar ditching campaign off Ceylon, South Africa, or the UK. Or, indeed, for the RAAF and RNZAF’s supply of lend-lease aircraft. I wonder if the method chosen was “make-work” for otherwise idle hands that could not be repatriated early enough.

Corrected: there was such a campaign off the UK.

But B24s and P51s were not operated by the FAA…;o)
I vaguely recall reading somewhere that aircraft and stores were disposed of overboard enroute from South Africa to UK, and my (long deceased) grandfather, a wartime docky at Portsmouth, moaned about the dumping of aeroplanes around the Nab tower because it upset his favourite fishing grounds.

It occurs to me that some such record may exist buried in the US archives, as the US will have to have been informed on the disposal of these aircraft, but I’ve never seen mention of such.

If there was any info on FAA aircraft in US archives then maybe it would also shed light on what happened to those US built aircraft allocated but not accepted/delivered, since most seem to have disappeared without trace – but that is something for the new edition to track down, I feel.

The Air Britain series on serials is restricted to RAF aircraft, but they did publish a tome by Ray Sturtivant and Mick Burrow called Fleet Air Arm Aircraft 1939-45 which gives as full a history as possible for each aircraft. It does not specifically identify the various means used for disposal. Otherwise this is definitely the one you want, but it is long out of print and will be expensive if you find one. There was talk about a revised edition but this has not been mentioned following the death of Ray Sturtivant.

Graham

Not so. Air-Britain are the only publisher to document the histories of every RNAS and RN aircraft since 1911 right through until 2011, not to mention other forms of aircraft such as UAVs/drones etc in other titles. I think you might be referring to the series of Air-Britain register books produced by Jim Halley which are much more basic listings by serial number range.

Regarding the details of the aircraft jettisoned from the carriers, the reason that the information is not necessarily included in the book is quite simple: either it doesn’t exist (i.e. the information regarding specific serials as distinct from ‘a number of Avengers’ etc wasn’t documented at the time), or if it does then the authors have not been able to trace it yet. More likely the former than the latter.

Of course, we are always willing to be proved wrong, and to that end we would be very interested to hear of any leads that might help us put the record straight.

What documentation survived the mass cull of official records from the Hayes repository in the 1980s was eventually distributed between TNA at Kew and FAAM at Yeovilton. Very little of it was wartime and many are the rumours of the logbooks of such individuals as Esmonde being amongst the piles of sacks bulging with paperwork that Ray – and others – found on one visit, only to be told that they didn’t want them rummaging through before they were sent for destruction.

We must be thankful for what survived!

Lee

Excellent news Lee, may I wish the pair of you good winds and a rapid progress to publication.

Judging from those prices, it looks as if every time an aviation text on a relatively arcane subject, from a ‘minority’ publisher, is produced, I ought to buy up the production run, sit on them for a few years and then slowly let them leach back into the marketplace – and keep my fingers crossed that some idiot doesn’t produce a revised edition!

Then I’m sorry to inform you that this ‘idiot’ and the other original co-author are already hard at work at producing the fully revised, corrected and updated Second Edition of this ‘arcane subject’. Best you get selling your copy now while it’s still worth something (thinks – I wonder how much my perfect condition double-signed First Edition is now worth?)

Incidentally, copies of the last in the series – on FAA helicopters – are still available. Maybe time to buy up the remaining stock as a nice little nest egg?

Lee

What Ray Sturtivant said in his preface was “…the RN tended to regard aircraft as pieces of equipment, and therefore saw no necessity to retain relevant documentation for any length of time once an aircraft had gone out of service.” Further, to the 1939 take-over, “”Sadly, the Admiralty did not adopt the excellent systems for recording unit and aircraft histories.” i.e. the RAF systems. As regards the end of the war jettisoning of US (and some British) aircraft, “No record of their serial numbers appears to have survived.”

It occurs to me that some such record may exist buried in the US archives, as the US will have to have been informed on the disposal of these aircraft, but I’ve never seen mention of such.

Thanks very much Gentlemen, I will acquire the Air Britain book. Snafu, can you confirm your post, that ALL wartime FAA individual aircraft history cards were destroyed in the 1950s? That seems incredible. I know Australia and the USA have kept all theirs, and I believe all the RAF cards have been kept as well. How do historians research without these cards?

My understanding is that in early 1945 the USN reduced their presence at Manus Island, and the FAA took over the facilities vacated(several airfields and installations across quite a few islands). Most if not all of the FAA aircraft dumped off Australia’s East Coast had been withdrawn to Australia from Manus. I’m wondering if any remaining at Manus at wars end were dumped there? Anybody have information about this?

Yet other methods of destruction were used elsewhere. For example, B-24s and P-51s in India were simply scrapped where they were. Though not entirely so, in the case of the B-24s. There doesn’t seem to have been any similar ditching campaign off Ceylon, South Africa, or the UK. Or, indeed, for the RAAF and RNZAF’s supply of lend-lease aircraft. I wonder if the method chosen was “make-work” for otherwise idle hands that could not be repatriated early enough.

Corrected: there was such a campaign off the UK.

I’m wondering if the FAA aircraft dumped off the East Coast of Australia in 1945 can be identified by serial numbers.

No.

At least not using Air Britains FAA Aircraft 1939-1945, where aircraft are last noted as being at, for example, Bankstown or Schofields 6/45. I believe the records for the FAA were disposed of in the early 50’s (although Sturtivant did apparently get some information before their disposal) so what info there is (ie Avenger JZ707, with 10 other aircraft from 828NAS, flown from Schofields to HMS Implacable 2/5/46, striped and ditched) comes either from other written sources or photographs.
But almost every aircraft disposed of in Australia was ditched overboard – I believe that was the only way to avoid paying for all those supplied under lend-lease.

http://www.abebooks.com/book-search/isbn/0851302327/page-1/ . As already mentioned, expensive!

http://www.amazon.co.uk//gp/offer-listing/0851302327/sr=/qid=/?condition=used&tag=bf-dt-home-21

175 instead of 199 £ 🙁