Fairey Gannet vs. Grumman S-2 Tracker??

I’m reading Phoenix Squadron at the moment and it has some interesting bits about the Gannet and the induction of the Sea King which was at the time state of the art in the ASW roll. The UK Seaking avionics fit was more sophisticated then the base American specification, ASW has always been a gold plated capability in the UK in many areas better then America.

I suggest page 127 which is all about 824NAS and the then new Sea King, it goes over the capability it gave the RN and also a rather funny comment from the Arks Phantom boss, his opinion about Helicopters on carriers up to the point 824 brought the Sea King onboard…:diablo:

Pioneer,

I don’t think the Alize is missed in the ASW role, any more than other fixed-wing types such as the Tracker, Viking and Gannet. This is because helicopters have improved tremendously since the 1950s/1960s in terms of sensors, speed and endurance. Plus now every escort is helicopter capable, so helicopters can operate closer to where they’re needed. And finally, helicopters carry dipping sonar, which seems to be a crucial piece of kit.

For the AEW role, the Hawkeye is much better, and for the ASuW role modern fighters such as the Rafale or F/A-18 can now do the job quite well thanks to their better sensors and endurance compared to older fighters.

For more info on the Alizee, look here: http://frenchnavy.free.fr/aircraft/alize/alize.htm

There’s a nice cutaway which shows the internal volume nicely (my guess is that the Alizee was more limited by the size of its engine than by internal volume).

Thanks for your reply ‘alertken’
All interesting and appreciated!
The comparison between US & British ASW needs is interesting – I suppose in a sense cost cutting in small carrier design for the Royal Navy cost her in more than one way!
I never knew that Indonesia used Gannet’s!
Were they ex-RAN and were they used in ASW role or more as MP?
And what timeframe were Gannet’s used by Indonesia??

Regards
Pioneer

Interesting comparison. But I think your reasons for excluding the Alize are rather arbitrary. 😉

First, the Alize definitely counts as a dedicated ASW design and shares precious little in common with the Vultur: new fuselage, new wing, new undercarriage, new turboprop engine, no jet engine, new avionics! Isn’t that enough to consider it a new aircraft? :p

Secondly, the Alize was quite equal in ASW terms to the Gannet. Alize actually had slightly better patrol endurance (5h15 vs. 4hr50) and much better range (2,000km+ vs. 1,600km) due to cleaner aerodynamics and large internal fuel capacity. It carried more sonobuoys (14 vs. 10), and its acoustic processors and sonobuoys were upgraded at least twice (mid-1960s and late 1970s), while the Gannet ASW was never upgraded. The Gannet’s only edge was its smaller deck footprint, and more importantly its larger bomb bay (two torpedoes vs. one).

All in all, the Alize was a good design, thanks to the combo of French aerodynamics and a British engine… 😉

Thanks H_K for your informative correction and opening my eyes!
It was not my intention to be dismissive of the Alize
You are right my knowledge of the Alize is rather arbitrary!
But that’s what I love about this forum and the wealth of knowledge that comes with its members!
Some great snippets of information I have not read about the Alize before
Can I ask you your source or a good place to find informative info – as I would like to learn more about the Alize!!

P.S. Do you know of how much the Alize capability is missed in French service??

Regards
Pioneer

Inasmuch as Tracker long outlasted Gannet in its ASW design role, then that’s “the better”. But Tinwing is quite right – in no way directly comparable. USN chose to dedicate some of its numerous flat tops to ASW; much later so did RCN, who put S-2 on Bonaventure. But RN chose to multi-task its CV/CVLs, so space ruled the Spec. addressed by Blackburn Y.B.1 and by Fairey G.R.17 (Alize, same). This logic was to lead to ASW choppers.

When the Korean War broke out, June,1950, US supplied interim Avengers to RN (and, with La Fayette, Aeronavale), pending delivery of US MSP-part-funded Gannets, which is why 314(!) AS/T models were built. RAN Gannet was replaced by S-2 in 1968 not “better”, but with spares and care of a fully-deployed USN type. Indonesia took used Gannets sort-of-free under Aid (Argentina/Tracker, ditto); land-bound Marineflieger took Gannet as a sop to UK v. floods of French, Italian, US sales to the new Bundesrepublik.

1950 saw a rush-Spec for inshore RAF MR and for convoy escort ASW on run-on Light Fleets: so, expendable material/crew on wooden, wavy Seamew A.S.1/M.R.2. Tracker would not have been available in that timeframe; the Reqt. lapsed in 1955.

I did not go to the lengths of including the likes of the the French Alize and Britain’s own short lived Seamew, due to a couple of reasons –
Firstly the French Breguet Br-1050 Alize, was an adoption of a failed Breguet Br-960 Vultur turboprop/turbojet-powered carrier-based attack aircraft, and so was not a specialized design and built for the role of specialized ASW role!
Secondly as much as it used American-based ASW equipment, the French priority and experience in airborne ASW aircraft was not on a par with their British/American counter parts (in my opinion!!).

Interesting comparison. But I think your reasons for excluding the Alize are rather arbitrary. 😉

First, the Alize definitely counts as a dedicated ASW design and shares precious little in common with the Vultur: new fuselage, new wing, new undercarriage, new turboprop engine, no jet engine, new avionics! Isn’t that enough to consider it a new aircraft? :p

Secondly, the Alize was quite equal in ASW terms to the Gannet. Alize actually had slightly better patrol endurance (5h15 vs. 4hr50) and much better range (2,000km+ vs. 1,600km) due to cleaner aerodynamics and large internal fuel capacity. It carried more sonobuoys (14 vs. 10), and its acoustic processors and sonobuoys were upgraded at least twice (mid-1960s and late 1970s), while the Gannet ASW was never upgraded. The Gannet’s only edge was its smaller deck footprint, and more importantly its larger bomb bay (two torpedoes vs. one).

All in all, the Alize was a good design, thanks to the combo of French aerodynamics and a British engine… 😉

Thanks TinWing for your informative reply!!

I did not go to the lengths of including the likes of the the French Alize and Britain’s own short lived Seamew, due to a couple of reasons –
Firstly the French Breguet Br-1050 Alize, was an adoption of a failed Breguet Br-960 Vultur turboprop/turbojet-powered carrier-based attack aircraft, and so was not a specialized design and built for the role of specialized ASW role!
Secondly as much as it used American-based ASW equipment, the French priority and experience in airborne ASW aircraft was not on a par with their British/American counter parts (in my opinion!!).
Thirdly I can not but help to think that the likes of the Short SB.6 Seamew – although both cleaver and bold in its design. I was under the impression that it was tailored towards a cheap lightweight replace for the Reserve branch of the Royal Navy FAA (?).
Saying this if it had of been put aboard RN carriers – I can not but help imagine the FAA getting very tired of it, much quicker than that of the Gannet.

Saying this the Seamew was an ugly looking thing in my book!
But I clearly know that looks mean little in military aircraft design and appearance!
One of my favorite aircraft is the beautiful Fairchild A-10 Thunderbolt II
And hell if looks were to go by, my wife would not have married me …ha..ha..ha:D

Regards
Pioneer

The Gannet was in no way directly comparable with the Tracker, as it was designed around a number of very stringent dimensional constraints. In the end, a double fold wing and paired turboprop was the the only technical solution to a very specific requirement, in turn dictated by the limited size of the RN’s carriers. At this stage in the aviation history, very little thought was given to the upgradability of airframes, as the rate of technological change was so rapid and service lives were expected to be short.

As far as the issue of obsolescence, the Gannet, at least in ASW form, was removed from service in favor of helicopters due to the same carrier size limitations that determined its odd configuration. A Whirlwind helicopter simply made fewer demands in terms of the hangar space and flight deck operations. It can also be argued that the ASW mission was far less important East of Suez, or in the Mediterranean, where the RN carriers predominantly operated. For the RN, the choice was easy, as it was inevitable that all carriers would have a helicopter flight for SAR, it made sense to shift to an all rotary wing ASW element, despite the limitations at longer ranges.

I also would be careful in any comparisons, as the US and Britain had different technological strengths in the this period. Britain was actually ahead of the United States in turboprop technology, and gas turbine technology in general, while the USN had actually invested a great deal in radial piston engine development far later than most people would expect. On the flip side, the United States was farther advanced in terms of avionics and electronics in general, so you would expect more space and weight reserved for those systems.

Of course, one thing you didn’t mention is that there were lighter weight alternatives to both types, most notably the French Alize and Britain’s own shortlived Seamew. As odd as it might seem today, the Gannet was considered to be quite a large and heavy aircraft for smaller carriers.