Fleet Air Arm Museum Ilchester, Somerset

HI Chris,
I came across this older thread and wondered how you got on with this air crash investigation. You see I am writing a story about Gordon BLACK as he was both a childhood friend of my fathers and we have just uncovered a wonderful letter he wrote home from his flight training in Ontario the year he died. In it he talks about the difficulty of flying and landing in snow and we just wonder whether perhaps that was the reason for the crash, but none of us are sure. We also have another reason to write about him as one of his bothers descendants has married into our family so it is a wonderful time to share his story. If you can help in any way with enlightening us on how he was registered as based on HMS Daedalus but was flying up north and then there is the mention of the RAF base at Usworth. What we would love to know if what he was doing up there near the Pennines. We’re not military or flying buffs though so most of this existing string is a bit lost on me.
Any help you can provide would be so gratefully received by his family on both sides of the Tasmin.
cheers
Claire Callaghan

Alan,

Thank you,
As I said earlier, the burial register records RAF Usworth.
The telegram addressed to the High Commisioner For New Zealand Dominion records;
‘Funeral arramged for Monday 17/11/1941 at Castletown cemetery, Co. Durham at 14.00hrs – 55 OTU’.

Chris

There isn’t any mention in the 55 OTU ORB, two Hurricane related entries from that day but no casualty action regarding another aircraft, but given the burial location it is fairly obvious that they were the unit which took casualty action.

Dave,

Thanks for the offer regarding the 55 OTU ORB.

I have a copy and there is no mention of the crash of Sub-Lt Black or any FAA.
There is notice however on 11.11.41 – 2 x NZ Officers posted to HQ No.11 group on completion of operational training (no names).

Chris

Chris,

Is there any mention in the 55OTU ORB.

If you do not have them I have copies for the period at Usworth but they are not accessible for the next two weeks as I am away from home

Lee,

I have dug deeper into the servive record of Ty. Sub-Lt Gordon Black RNZNVR.

I can confirm the following.

03/08/1941 – Appointed to Heron R.N. Yeovilton for f.f.d. and fighter course
03/11/1941 – Appointed to Lee-on-Solent No. 781 sqn
11/11/1941 – Seriously injured in air crash at 10.45am died later that evening.
17/11/1941 – Buried Castletown (Hylton) cemetery at 14.00 – 55 OTU Usworth

From the many correspondence in the file by the authorities trying to locate where Ty. Sub-Lt G Black was buried;
Lee-on Solent in one letter state they hold no record of his death.
HMS Daedalus claim he was ‘not on their books’ then later claim he was.
All letters were copied to 55 OTU Commanding Officer
The Burial Register records him as RNVR RAF Station Usworth.

Chris

Lee,
As well as locating the exact site of the crash I have also visited the grave of Sub-Lt Black at Hylton Castle.

Chris

I presume you have the entry from the CWG website: http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead.aspx?cpage=1

Lee,

A.F.O 1309A/39 This is the reference quoted on the memorandum to The Naval Secretary, Navey Office, Wellington, New Zealand dated 7th Jan 1942.

55 OTU at the time of the crash 11/11/01941 were operating from RAF Usworth (Sunderland) and not Aston Down; and yes they were a fighter unit.

Hence why I am asking for advice to resolve the full story

regards

Chris

Lee,

Thanks for the reply,

All my information is from the pilots service record.
The document in question is regarding the loss of Sub-Lt Black is:- A.F.O 1380A/39
The information being recorded immeditly after the accident.
Definately 781 Sqn.

I used the F1180 quote as I had no idea what to ask for for the FAA losses.
The burial register for Hylton castle Cemetery has him as 55 OTU.

Does anyone have access tot he Navy list for 1941? so as to look up another version of Sub-Lt Blacks unit.

kind regards

Chris

Chris

“AFO 1309A/39″? This, to me, is Admiralty Fleet Order 1309A of 1939 which doesn’t make sense. Can you elaborate as to what this ‘A.F.O 1309A/39” is that you refer to? Without seeing it it’s difficult to say, but it may be the AFO which generated that particular version of the logbook page.

55 Operational Training Unit was a RAF unit based at RAF Aston Down as a fighter training unit. Doesn’t make sense.

FAAM have all Navy Lists but I can’t access them right at this minute. He may well have been a 781 Sqn pilot but, as I said earlier, the Swordfish he was flying would not have been.

Lee

Lee,

Thanks for the reply,

All my information is from the pilots service record.
The document in question is regarding the loss of Sub-Lt Black is:- A.F.O 1380A/39
The information being recorded immeditly after the accident.
Definately 781 Sqn.

I used the F1180 quote as I had no idea what to ask for for the FAA losses.
The burial register for Hylton castle Cemetery has him as 55 OTU.

Does anyone have access tot he Navy list for 1941? so as to look up another version of Sub-Lt Blacks unit.

kind regards

Chris

Chris

I’m intrigued as to why you ask for 781 Sqn Record Book (not ORB – that’s an RAF term). FAAM certainly do not hold AM F1180s (in fact IIRC they don’t exist for wartime FAA aircraft) and I’m pretty sure they don’t have a wartime 781 Sqn Record Book either (many second-line units didn’t keep them). The only source for wartime accident records are those details listed on individual aircrew cards of which FAAM hold two boxes but those pertaining to individuals who were killed in action were kept separately and didn’t survive a cull of documentation in London many years ago.

Although we don’t know what unit the aircraft was on at the time, it certainly wouldn’t be 781 Sqn. However, 781 Sqn did often provide spare pilots and crews for aircraft being delivered from the Storage Section at Lee-on-Solent to other units. The only known record for this particular aircraft shows that it was issued to Lee-on-Solent Storage Section on 14.10.41. If it crashed in Co Durham then it was most probably en-route to another Storage Section at somewhere like Crail or Arbroath for issue to a Squadron and clearly never got there. The Navy List for 1941 would show what station Black was attached to but not necessarily which unit. Therefore he may well be listed as ‘HMS Daedalus”.

Hope that helps.

Regards

Lee

Hello,

Bringing this back to the front.

I found evidence at the crash site yesterday 17th May 2013.
Any help for the ORB entry and F1180 would be appreciated

regards

Chris