In a few recent posts, I advocvated shutting off the flight deck completely. Bank vault-style locking doors, no movement between the cabin and flight deck…the whole works.
Well I’ve been staying up tonight, because I need to call my girlfriend at 4.30am (don’t ask). So I’ve been “contemplating and cogitating” as they say. Result: I’ve changed my mind.
1. Visits to the flight deck, in flight, do much to raise the profile and friendly image of airlines and of the pilot community. When I was a kid I used to visit the flight deck all the time. I once spent over 2 hours inflight in a BA L1011 flightdeck and nearly 30 minutes in in Air 2000 757-200 flightdeck. I also had the pleasure with B747’s (flightdeck was smaller than an L1011!) and as a young whipper snapper, who knows, maybe it caused the interest I have today. And hopefully that interest will eventually be of benefit to the industry.
2. I am convinced that there must be operational and safety benefits to be had by sending dispatchers/managers and air traffic controllers on a few flights a year to familiarise themselves.
3. It can probably help to break down barriers between pilots and cabin crew, dispatchers, engineers and the rest. Which all contributes in a small way to more efficient operations.
Any comment on that?
By: wysiwyg - 5th August 2003 at 14:13
Originally posted by Matthew Murray
…you could even open the hatch int he cabin, down into the forward cargo bay, through into the avionics bay and up into the cockpit through the hatch…
I don’t know any western airliner where that is possible. The A340 has access from the flightdeck to the avionics bay (I have been down there in flight) and the 747 has access from the forward cabin area down to the avionics bay and on to the nose wheel bay. I don’t know any narrow body aircraft that has any cabin/flightdeck access to anywhere underneath.
By: KabirT - 5th August 2003 at 07:35
Most airlines have now….i dont think many airlines now allow cockpit visits.
By: steve rowell - 5th August 2003 at 07:25
Qantas has become very strict, even kids can’t visit the flight deck these days
By: Ren Frew - 4th August 2003 at 16:06
On a DC-10 flight my nearest convenience was the one right at the cabin door, the area became so congested at one point that the cabin staff had to ask people to stand aside in order to open the cockpit door whilst attempting to serve the flight crew with coffee and teas.
For a few minutes the door was left wide open as the flight attendant went to get a couple of meals for the cockpit and the captain indulged in a brief conversation with those of us in the pee queue. This was only a year or so ago as well.
By: geedee - 4th August 2003 at 15:50
Some take it seriously…….some dont !
By: wysiwyg - 30th December 2002 at 11:21
RE: Flightdeck security
I have previously worked on the 747-100, 200 & 400 and all of them shared the staircase to the upper deck with the passengers. In my outfit (and presumably all UK airlines) we are just in the process of installing CCTV which will help but so many aitcraft have a toilet just outside the flightdeck that you cannot stop the public from using. This will mean that there will be unknowns in the area. Even if you keep people away from the area there is never going to be enough distance to stop someone in a front row hearing (through a curtain) that the door has just clicked open and rushing the cabin attendant.
By: andrewm - 30th December 2002 at 11:06
RE: Flightdeck security
You said about people could gaina ccess when someone is leaving/entering the cockpit.
Wouldnt this be solved more by just a simple curtain around the cabin crew area while airbourne?
Is a 747 more secure than a normal jet because i saw a diagram once that showed the cockpit layout. It showed the exit for the cockpit was to go down stairs to the front of the aircraft on the “ground floor”. Surly this would give the crew time to notify pilots of a terrorist coming up or pilots could have CCTV and a buzzer for when the downstairs door is opened? Then they would have time to lock the cockpit.
If the cabin crew came up with meals then once they passed through the first door sucessfully then they could lock it and open cockpit door!
By: wysiwyg - 30th December 2002 at 10:23
RE: Flightdeck security
Glad to be of help. The new doors are undoubtedly very secure however the time that they are completely useless is when someone is entering or leaving the flightdeck. This is the point when I think we need more protection.
By: Selsport69 - 29th December 2002 at 22:16
RE: Flightdeck security
wysiwyg thanks for the info mate. It was something that was on my mind thats all.
By: wysiwyg - 29th December 2002 at 20:32
RE: Flightdeck security
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 29-12-02 AT 08:39 PM (GMT)]Kev – because they would not get a response to their request rather than a denial of entry. There are time delays built into the system to allow for periods where we may be so busy that we cannot take a request from the cabin crew for entry.
The more I learn about the new doors the more impressed I am with them BUT now I am the prisoner! This whole business has massively reduced the quality of our working existence.
By: Selsport69 - 29th December 2002 at 19:01
RE: Flightdeck security
wysiwyg, I may have missed something here you say there is a way that the cabin crew can gain access if the flight crew are out cold but not if they are fine. how does one know if they are okay or not? I am not trying to be smart just curious.
By: wysiwyg - 29th December 2002 at 14:33
RE: Flightdeck security
The current thinking is that you avoid the issue of flightdeck entry in the first place. If that system should fail I would like to be waiting on the other side of the door with a revolver.
There is a way for the cabin crew to get access if both pilots are incapacitated. If either pilot is concious the cabin crew can only gain entry after a request made by them is allowed by the flightcrew.
By: Selsport69 - 29th December 2002 at 12:41
RE: Flightdeck security
Just going back to the topic. I agree the cockpit should be a secure area but it could work against you as well. Say for arguing sake that a hijacker did get access to the cockpit then surely these new doors would stop any attempt to to try and over power any hijackers. Same thing if both pilots became ill or what ever how do you gain access to the cockpit?
Just my views.
Kev
By: wysiwyg - 23rd December 2002 at 18:58
RE: Flightdeck security
The flight management system should have all the airfield data in its database (as long as the company maintains its subscription with Aerad/Jeppesen). If not you can manually create the departure or arrival in the FMC yourself. Paper copies of all the plates are carried though.
By: mongu - 23rd December 2002 at 18:42
RE: Flightdeck security
Do they actually carry charts or is it all held on the satnav, like in a car?
By: EGNM - 23rd December 2002 at 13:44
RE: Flightdeck security
yeh they do – simple as in case of emergency, diversion for any reason or any other problems they have the alternates to go to – especially if the airport is one that the company doesn’t fly into regularly, but i understand it is SOP that even based field pilots must check all charts and run over deails before approaches
By: andrewm - 23rd December 2002 at 08:33
RE: Flightdeck security
A friend once said they carry charts for all airports in range along route, at destination and departure airport. Seems sensible!
By: EGNM - 22nd December 2002 at 23:02
RE: Flightdeck security
again soz to keep harping on but at Air Atlanta i know the ops guys used to go up approx once a month on flights basically to keep the aircrafts “on board library” commonly known as Jeppeson logs updated. On a busy aircraft operating constantly with a small company i hear this is a common procedure as the aircraft are not allowed to go airbourne without them.
For those who don’t know Jepesson logs are like a dictionary of airfield charts, the CC B747s have every licensed airfield in the world onbourd – yes including the little 500m grass strips in outer mongolia! – due to the fact the aircraft can end up anywhere! – i presume the smaller aircarft such as the RJs and Turboprops just have the european sections onbourd as they are unlikely to end up outside of europe and they just update the logs if the aircraft are chartered out??
By: KabirT - 22nd December 2002 at 15:45
RE: Flightdeck security
nothing wrong with your part too…oh well that was just what i thought.
By: mongu - 22nd December 2002 at 15:36
RE: Flightdeck security
I don’t agree with that logic.
As wysiwyg quite correctly pointed out once, pilots are human! Factor in toilet breaks and times for cabin crew to bring the meals along, and you’ll find the flight deck door open quite a lot during flight. That’s plenty of opportunity for someone to “intrude”.
Risk is reduced somewhat if a person is riding on the jumpseat, thereby providing an obstacle to an uninvited guest.
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December 22, 2002 at 12:35 am