flying in enemy colours.

Flying in enemy colours

I think Kg 200 has just been re-released at Military and Aviation book Club if anyone is trying to get a copy??

in his book JJ recounts that he didn’t fire on it due to the confusion around its identity… he mentions the ‘twin rudders’ and the possibility of it being a new type being manufactured in America… however he was fired upon by the gunner in the upper dorsal turret… the ‘Dornier’ escaped in to low cloud after hitting one of the other Spitfires….

Good point Mike.

However, I am made to think of the ‘colour photos which prove the RN scheme on the CAF Wildcat are accurate’ which were long promised, but, suprise, never appeared. Most people believe stories – they never get as far as documentry evidence, real or fake!

Cheers

Originally posted by JDK
Thanks Von P, quite right.

Someone never gave back my copy of War Prizes, hightly reccomended book, much missed.

I stand by my thought though, that there is no evidence that they didn’t have German markings (at some point). There is no evidence that they did, either, of course. However, no evidence does not mean something didn’t happen – especially if it were dubious / discreditable and therfore likely to be hidden / destoyed. I don’t think it’s very likely, but…

Flying a He115in any colours was taking a lot of risks, and I wouln’t be suprised if crews coul’ve been shot if captured. Not an easy task!

Don’t forget the flip side of this coin – the fabrication of evidence to prove the truth of stories about events which never happened.

Originally posted by DazDaMan
Apologies for going a bit off-thread, but all this sounds rather like the book KG200 (I think that’s what it’s called) about a secret German plan to use a captured B-17 to bomb the Houses of Parliament.

Good book, too!

I fear I’m going to take this even further off topic. Yes, the title KG200 is correct and the unit (or a similar one) operated from Hildesheim just South or South East of Hanover and is now an army barracks. At least it was an army barracks in 74/75 when I was there, our unit had their vehicles in one of the hangars and I still remember doing patrols round them at night and seeing the light shining through the bullet and cannon shell holes which were still in the doors. The other hangars housed an artillery regiment and a German army helicopter flight and field ambulance.

Thanks Von P, quite right.

Someone never gave back my copy of War Prizes, hightly reccomended book, much missed.

I stand by my thought though, that there is no evidence that they didn’t have German markings (at some point). There is no evidence that they did, either, of course. However, no evidence does not mean something didn’t happen – especially if it were dubious / discreditable and therfore likely to be hidden / destoyed. I don’t think it’s very likely, but…

Flying a He115in any colours was taking a lot of risks, and I wouln’t be suprised if crews coul’ve been shot if captured. Not an easy task!

Apologies for going a bit off-thread, but all this sounds rather like the book KG200 (I think that’s what it’s called) about a secret German plan to use a captured B-17 to bomb the Houses of Parliament.

Good book, too!

JDK,

The ex Norwegian RAF He115s were BV184 (used for clandestine ops in the Bay of Biscay, during one of which it was damaged by a/c of 303 sqdn, & w/o in a t/o f/a 31/5/42), BV185 (used on clandestine ops from Malta to North Africa, w/o in an air raid on Malta, 9/7/41), and BV186 (no use on clandestine ops, scr Dec ’42).

BV187 was an ex-Luftwaffe a/c captured by the Norwegians during the fightning in Norway. It went out to Malta where it was destroyed by straffing Bf109s in early 1942.

This come from ‘War Prizes’ by Phil Butler (MCP). There is no mention of them using German markings. I expect that they relied on the Germans/Italians taking it as read that they were ‘friendly’ from the fact that they were obviously He115s, rather than noticing the RAF markings.

It’s worth mentioning that a Hudson (N7334) of the Photographic Development Unit was shot down by RAF Hurricanes near Gravesend, Kent, killing all but one of the four man crew, whilst it was painted in a non-standard 3 colour camouflage, whilst wearing red/blue RAF roundels, but no RAF code letters, on the 3/3/40. Having seen an illustration of the colour scheme, it does look rather Germanic, and perhaps the twin engine/fin layout made it look like a Do17?

The only survivor of the Hudson had already been shot down by the RAF, whilst in a Hampden, presumably mistaken for a Do17?

In ‘Target England’ by Edmund Blandford (Airlife), a German pilot mentions flying a Wellington over E Anglia & Yorkshire at night, and also a Boston during daylight on a later flight over SE England. No dates are given, nor is there mention of what markings were carried.

Guzzineil, I wonder if the Do17 you mention was in fact a Hampden?

Geoff.

Lots of stories of mystery B17s or 24s tagging along just out of range of the guns of the formations. These were assumed to be German flown captured bombers giving range, height, speed etc to the ground gunners.

A B24 top turret gunner friend, remembers vividly seeing an early model B24D without a nose turret flying along out of range of their guns while on a run over Austria in early 45. His pilot told the gunners to keep an eye on the plane and blast it if they got close enough.

Dan

The British operated some ex-Norwegean Heinkel He115 floatplanes in the Med and North Sea area. Some were seen with RAF Roundels, but it is far from certain if they were never painted in Luftwafe colours.

There are no rules of war. There is the Geneva Convention (which the USA currently ignores the part referring to prisoners of war) the work of organisations like the International Red Cross, and some form of taccit understanding – hence no mustard gas in W.W.II despite both sides stockpiling it.

There are a significant number of examples of captured enemy equipment being used in the colours of the ‘new owner’ but only a few of deliberately used in the colours of the original owner, and I don’t recall any reference elsewhere the JEJ example, though it may well be true.

HTH

that would be a breach of all war laws I presume, niether side ever did that on a wide scale AFAIK .