Flying Legends – a discussion

So you had trouble with wind breaks too?

The only problem i’ve ever had with flying legends was the old guy who was sitting next to me who had a touch of wind last year. And i thought i was bad. Thats the last time i sit downwind next to him.

We could certainly look into it! 🙂

Dakota anyone? Any suggestions as to a good pick up point….

Thanks for the interest! We would love to see someone take the imitative and arrange something from maybe Edinburgh Airport. I think its a bit more accessible than say Glasgow and I`ve no doubt we could fill anything you send us! We get fed up seeing all these pleasure flights available South of the Border and no-one ever seems to think there is a market up here! Looking for any staff? 😉

The how to improve Legends debate usual starts in the aftermath of the event, and each year it’s exactly the same debate, queues, food, tents, toilets, step ladders, wind breaks etc……. And funnily enough the majority of us return the next year and put up with the same gripes, why ??????? Because the majority of us (AiB being the exception) love the event.

Actually Ian, your statement about me is incorrect.
I don’t mind F/L as an airshow, I actually think it’s pretty good.
It’s Duxford I’m no great fan of as a venue. I think TFC do a pretty good job on the airshow side of things and SG has some very pretty aeroplanes but I’ve never been a fan of Duxford and never will be.
I first went there in the mid seventies and although I’ve been back many times since, it’s never really grown on me.

Most of the issues here on this thread are the fault of Duxford, not TFC and I see nothing being done to improve them.

As usual, I say this, if you don’t like it, don’t go. I haven’t been for a few years now and don’t miss it.

I went to the October show last year and again the show was good, to see anything you needed to be on the tank bank but it wasn’t too crowded.

One other thing annoys me too. It’s the way people always bang on about F/L being the best in the World. That’s a very subjective statement in my ‘onest and although F/L is very good, invariably when you ask these people what other venues in the World they intend to visit this year (to compare) they don’t go anywhere.
It’s a bit like the old wild west joke about the best hotel in town–it’s the only hotel! Again, not the fault of TFC.

Cheers
Andy.

PS. I didn’t intend to get involved in this debate here but as you used my name I thought a response was in order.
PPS. Funnily enough, I might attend this year.

So will I be attending again- certainly! I just wish that some enterprising Air Charter company would offer something to spare us that bloody drive down the A1!

We could certainly look into it! 🙂

Dakota anyone? Any suggestions as to a good pick up point….

Personally in order to bring more of the general public into the show I think you would need a more varied program (including modern stuff) which would obviously destroy the ethos of Legends. However as has been discussed here before, I have wondered if early jets could be included to broaden the appeal. But countering this argument I feel that the show is presently the right length and any extra acts could make it too long?

Having the morning for arrivals and walking down the market makes adds variety to the day. I think the market could be enlarged a bit which could bring in more income and a more varied punter?

As I have been lucky to attend every Legends I do find that – I am ashamed to say – I take it for granted and as I am normally working I don’t watch much of the show. But I do make a point to watch the ‘surprises’ which always make it special for me personally. (I would be happy to pay the entrance fee just to see the Swiss Connie, of the SAAB B17 etc etc)

From talking to lots of punters over the years I hear all the normal moans expressed here about marquees, stepladders, windbreaks, cost, car parking etc – and I must admit I agree to a large extent.

The Marquees obviously work to bring in extra cash (but do they have to be right in the centre of the crowd line?).

I would ban Stepladders and stop people padlocking deckchairs to the fence – just to try and get people to be more considerate for others, that way anyone from a small child to a giant would be able to get a view (being 6’2” myself I never stand at the front of the crowdline – even if it means I miss the spectacular take offs). Being an aviation event it is possible to get a great view if you step 50m back from the fence and look up – as some people do – that way you get no crowds!. It’s a shame that all airfields are flat!!- If there was a natural bank on which to sit a lot more would see all the action! – as I said its all about being considerate of other people. I get more annoyed at the non crew ‘yellow jackets’ blocking views.

I would also round up all the non paying public who see fit to stand over the other side of the airfield in surrounding fields etc (which I find is dangerous to put it lightly) and make them pay double for endangering their own and the pilots lives. (That would swell the coppers)

Toilets – I think the quality/quantity has gone down a bit this last year – not sure why – There were queues I saw for both sexes – normally unheard of for us blokes! – it was either that or walk half a mile to an empty loo!

Regarding cost – comparing it to other events it seems to be comparable but how about having family tickets or ‘per car’ as in the old days, which may encourage more families back in?

Food – I think the problem lies in that a contract is given to a single catering company IIRC? So there is no competition – but standards are controlled – if in doubt bring your own – that’s what I always do!

Car parking – I have queued for 4 hours to get into RIAT only to miss the best bits and queued for 3 hours to get out of Fininngley a few years back – in comparison with other locations the M11 helps to disperse traffic reasonably quickly. As most of the punters seem to come from the south there is always a slow exit in that direction straight after the show – but generally if you pick your times right you don’t have a problem – (OK if you are with family – or have longer distances to travel this may not be an option) But the Market and hangers remain open for some time after the show has finished so hang around, do some shopping (if you have any cash left!) and watch the departures. 🙂

I hate to say that I agree with DB

In the few years I’ve been going to Legends I’ve never had a problem with the traffic, toilets, food or viewing the display.

If I’ve had to queue to get out it’s never been more than 10 minutes at the most. One year due to Snappers sense of direction we turned up later in the morning and had to park away from the airfield, however when we finally got to the gates neither of us had to queue for long to get in.

I found the food to be reasonable, and a lot cheaper than Goodwood FoS.

I guess the event gets a significant part of its revenue from the sale of pitches to the various traders who choose to attend the event. It’s all part and parcel of events such as this. I don’t have a problem with this and would say that if the trader and marquees were stopped, the extra space available would not mean more people would attend, it would however mean a hike in the entrance fee to fill the gap left by the lost revenue from traders.

The how to improve Legends debate usual starts in the aftermath of the event, and each year it’s exactly the same debate, queues, food, tents, toilets, step ladders, wind breaks etc……. And funnily enough the majority of us return the next year and put up with the same gripes, why ??????? Because the majority of us (AiB being the exception) love the event.

One thing I will say, is that this year I intend to unseat the moron with the tennis umpires seat who sits right up against the fence. 🙂 If it’s you, you have been warned and should be on your guard, you deserve it whoever you are.;)

A question?

How much difference would it make to spectators if the minimum display height were raised to, say, 100ft? The low passes at VERY low level down the runway are great, but for my money, hard to see through the parked aircraft and from anywhere but the front row.

G’day 😉

Hi guys.
I visit Legends every year. Although the prices are high it is worth every penny. I also go to bike races and (apart from Brands Hatch) you don’t realise how well off we are at Ducky!!! Donnington 2005, 4 1/2 hours to get off a field. No facilities off circuit and very few on site!!!. The missis ended up having to wee into a plastic tray left over from the picinic!! How degrading does it have to get. I travel to at least 5 races abroad each year and the UK is by far the worst for punter facilities……. but……. we have the best motorsport in the world and I will put up with blocked bogs and surly chavs on the car park to watch pure class do their thing. Its the same with our airshows. Yes, they are very pricey, but I would not miss them. Maybe I should make a stand about pricing but when you look at peeps posts on this here site about the costs of aircraft renovation/maintenance then I think my little moan is very petty. How many of us have moaned about the queues into Ducky but have walked back to our mondeo with a lump in our throat and been generally unmanly after watching Ray Hanna do his “thing” and the balbo????

Wow did’nt we do a thread like this last year ?

I love legends and now like the 20% discount for friends membersip so i am paying the entrance price from 3 years ago.

I also have no probs with the toilets as i use the ones behind hangar 3 as there is rarely a queue or to the friends marquee.

The only hate i have is that they should ban step ladders as everytime you go to get a pic of a taxying aircraft or a distant low flyer you always have some guy on a step ladder with the stupidest sized telephoto lens you can get (no real need for them must be compansating for something ?).

curlyboy

Well, this “debate” certainly inspires me to add my humble comments. I have been travelling down to Duxford from Scotland since 1985 and have seen many changes in that time – both to costs and flying in general. I agree with many of you that the admission costs are getting high but – to make the comparison with football again- with Duxford you get 4-5 hours of flying PLUS whatever ground action there is, hangars, museum, stalls etc whereas with football what do you get? 2 hours max! I know what I think is better value.

A couple of years ago myself and some friends decided to treat ourselves to one of the Gold passes. What a disappointnment. It seemed like I paid another £30 odd pound for a seat and then had to pay another £1.50 for a cup of luke warm tea in a polystyrene cup! We also had quite a bit of bother with people rushing to the front to get better pics on taxying aircraft. Needless to say we won`t be doing that again. When I complained about this and said I`d be better off in say the Flypast enclosure which (then) offered just about the same for free I never even had the courtesy of a reply but I did notice that Flypast couldn`t get its enclosure the following year! Coincidence?

With traffic I have to agree that I have never had any problems getting out so full marks to the IWM staff there!The debate about “fence bandits” does really bother me though. No matter what airshow you attend it seems that there is always a dedicated driver and a body that leaps out at the first opportunity with the windbreak and chairs and makes a beeline for his spot on the wire! I also notice that the clever ones have a chair bolted onto a wooden or otherwise platform which takes pride of place on their camper van roof! I suppose as long as they are in the car park they are away from the rest of us at the fence.

So will I be attending again- certainly! I just wish that some enterprising Air Charter company would offer something to spare us that bloody drive down the A1!

Sorry, I don’t buy this lack of view thing at all. The aeroplanes are in the sky – look up. Incidentally most adults with cameras do mind small children squeezing in front – they are invariably poorly behaved and only interested in kicking the fence.

Fair enough, we’re all entitled to our opinions. But, for us, the ground view is a big part of it and if we dont think we’ll be able to see we’ll go somewhere else, simple as that.

As I said before, seeing the takeoff, landing and taxying is a big part of the show for us, and I think my son gets more of a thrill from seeing a running aircraft on the taxiway 25 yards in front of him than the same plane high up in the air and further away from the crowdline. He also likes waving to the crews and them waving back, which may not be a big deal to you but it is to him; and I know who I’m going to take more notice of 🙂

My experience with kids standing in front of adults is obviously different to yours – firstly we always ask, secondly I make sure they dont stand in front of people with cameras, and finally they are told in no uncertain terms to behave, which they do. This is irrespective of what event we’re at.

As i said and MANY others on here there are things that need to be sorted out BEFORE they need to get another major increase in attendees.Look to keeping what you have before you cram more in and make it a unpleasant experience.
There is a responsibility by Duxford to give the clients a good clear view and some degree of comfort.They are hosting an AIRDISPLAY not a tent and marquee sales convention.
I would like to see the aircraft start up,taxi and take off as well as the 9 year old child.If i can’t see how can they.
Unfortunately TFC and other operators are affected by decisions made by Duxford,although ironically it is the operators marquees that are plonked by the flightline.
A comment regarding gnomes obviously implies that there is going to have to be a guide for minimum hieght requirements for spectators to be before entering the airfield.:rolleyes:

…. bearing in mind they are performing their displays several hundred feet above the ground, I would suggest to you that airshows are clearly not a viable spectator sport for gnomes.

Dont forget that todays gnome may be a 9 year old with the potential to turn into tomorrows paying adult 🙂 Seeing the aircraft take off, land and then taxi in front of us is part of the show, especially if you’re 9, and if that view is blocked by tents and windbreaks it does reduce the enjoyment somewhat.

Its true that if people stand up then the view is also diminished but the sheer volume of tents and windbreaks forces the ‘standees’ (for want of a better word) into a much smaller space. Plus, most adults dont mind a small child squeezing in front of them (even if his dad has to stand at the back 🙂 ) whereas this cant be done so easily when there are VIP tents and windbreaks in the way.

… would suggest to you that airshows are clearly not a viable spectator sport for gnomes…

…Which as a person of short stature, exacerbated because I can’t stand for any length of time at the moment, is a shame. They could have my dollar if they gave more thought to the plight of gnomes

At the risk of merely reiterating points that others have already made…

I’d love to go to Legends, I think it would be a fantastic experience, but I probably won’t this year. I tend to go to airshows on my own, and because of a back problem I can’t really stand for more than ten minutes at a time. This gives me the choice of turning up at the crack of doom and reserving my space at the crowdline all day, or turning up later/having a look round the stalls and museum and taking my chance with the view or lack thereof.

Last year I went to four airshows, Biggin Hill, Redhill, Wings and Wheels at Dunsfold and the Spitfire show at Duxford. With the first three I didn’t have a problem and had a great time. The last one I enjoyed least – because of the number of people there and the restricted views further back I felt compelled to ‘park’ my seat earlier and even when sat at the crowd line a few people tried to wedge themselves right in front of me when the flying was about to start. I can only imagine what it’s like at Legends. I love Duxford, but I wish they would give more thought to the visibility of the show if you aren’t right at the front.

😮 Blimey Damien,i’m coming with you.
No traffic,[ok we did’nt queue to get out for 3 hours a couple of years ago ]no crowding [you can barely move on the side of the landwarfare hill],no queues for the toilets WOW.
Regarding evacuating the airfield with tiered seating,they already use tier seating,you pay more to sit in it.
I assume evacuating tents and marquees is’nt a problem either.;)
You can find spots to sit but not if you want to see the planes.
The situation still needs to be looked into,same problems reported every year.
Wait until after this years Legends is over, there will be the same list of complaints that have been aired year after year.
Marquees and tents blocking views,
Step ladders,
Tent city by the crowdline
Tannoy speakers blocking views
Expensive food/drink.
Lets hope Duxford start with a clean sheet this year and get some improvements in.

I consider myself to be more of a member of the public with a moderate interest in aircraft than a true dyed-in-the-wool enthusiast. I buy the occasional magazine and book, and can tell the difference between a Spitfire and a Hurricane but struggle when asked which Mark of Spitfire I’m looking at 😮

So, I hope my comments might be closer to the ‘man in the street’ than some other people here (no offence intended BTW) although I cant claim to be representative of the genuine MoP with no interest in aviation at all. I’ve been to Legends for about 4 or 5 of the last 7 or 8 years, and have taken my plane-mad 9-year old to the last 2 or 3

Things I like :-

😀 The overall atmosphere of the day. I’ve never experienced any rudeness or bad behaviour etc although I may have been lucky and/or not in the wrong place

😀 Seeing wonderful old aircraft being flown in such numbers and with such enthusiasm

😀 The sounds and smells

😀 Seeing the planes up close on the flightline

😀 Seeing them taxi past just in front of the crowdline, assuming we can get a decent view (more on this later…)

😀 The ‘market stalls’ – we spend a fair bit of time browsing through and buying odd bits and peices

😀 The museum itself – we sometimes visit on non-airshow days just because we like it anyway but always try to have a quick look around even on Legends days

Things I’m not so keen on :-

😡 The cost of entry, I know airshows are expensive things to run but it means I only take the plane-mad 9-year old and not his less-interested little brother or his mum, so it stops being a family day out and turns into a treat for which I have to repay the little brother later on (not that I mind but its nice for all of us all go out together)

😡 Paying again for the flightline walk and a programme – I’d rather pay for these up front even if it means the cost goes up even more

😡 Being ripped off over the price of food, drinks and icecreams. We usually take our own food but £1.40 for a Calippo is taking the **** when the ice-cream vans at the coast charge 80p-£1 for the same thing

😡 not being able to get a decent view despite the high cost of admission, especially my son as he’s quite short. The VIP tents etc take up far too much of the flightline, the windbreaks are too tall for my son to see over and there are no grandstands to make up for it.

😡 finding tents, windbreaks and chairs padlocked to the railings , some of which appear to have been there all night. Plain selfish IMHO and if I ran the show I’d be going round with a set of boltcutters the night before to cut them off and would burn the lot of them.

Will we go this year ? I dont know at the moment. It depends on whether the 9-year-old wants to go, what the weather’s like, whether anything else comes up and so on. We live about 90 minutes drive away so we’ll probably go to at least one Duxford show but it may not be Legends.

PaulF – one of the reasons Legends is so good is that the action is non-stop. Having ‘all day’ action which is in reality one thing, a pause, another thing, another pause, etc. would be disastrous to the show.

Hi Damien,

Good point, I know where you’re coming from, but perhaps the “non stop” five hours versus a day long show, albeit with breaks to allow “regrouping”, might make some Legends visitors feel that they need not try and join the stampede to the crowd line in time for the start of the action, as the natural ebb and flow of the non enthusiast visitors over a longer “display” might mean there was a steady flow of spaces available?

Big screens might help – but placing them such that they are visible to large parrts of the crowd, but don’t get in the way of the view of the live action would pose a few problems.

Perhaps an opportunity was missed when the American Museum building was designed – it probably provides a good vantage point from which to watch the flying, even though it’s a fair way back from the fence.

As has been pointed out, despite the challenges and niggles, perhaps the fact that Legends attendance hasn’t actually fallen is a sign of it’s continued success. With a bit of pre-planning, an early start, and an acceptance that large crowds will always bring traffic queues and toilet queues then it’s a good enthusiasts’ day (or days if you can afford both) out.

Perhaps attracting more non-ethusiasts to Legends might not be best goal to aim for after all? Goodwood FoS seems to go from strength to strength, despite being a pre-booking only event, with controlled attendence numbers. Maybe Legends has reached a s “self limiting” size, and any attempt to increase it’s popularity might bring more problems than benefits?

I think Trumper has a point regarding seating/grandstands.

Unless you are lucky enough to arrive at Legends as part of a group, and can thus arrange a rota to “reserve” your group’s spot on the fence, then you have to choose between walking around the museum and stalls in the morning, and then finding you cannot get a decent view when you try to get to the crowd line at lunchtime, or you sit by the fence all morning, thus ensuring you have a good view when the action starts, but you get little chance to walk around the ground displays – neither option seems good value if you’ve paid £100 to take the family in with you.

While the event lasts all day (i.e. museum opens around 9:00am, and you can leave after 6:00pm), the actual flying display, which is what most non-enthusiasts have come for (otherwise they would presumably come on a quieter day to see the IWM) does not last all day, as the action doesn’t start till lunchtime (the non-enthusiats probably aren’t really interested in the misc, often un-narrated arrivals and pleasure flight movements beforehand), so cost comparisons of 90min football matches vs an “all day” Legends event are perhaps not as valid as we might think – most non enthusisats probably see the chance to look around the IWM as an incidental option, rather than as integral to the whole Legends day? And don’t forget that although football match attendees may have to travel a fair distance too and from the match, they probably don’t need to leave as early, or get home as late, as visitors to Legends (or any other major airshow), where there is only one venue for the whole country to attend.

I take my “petrol-head” son to Goodwood Festival of Speed every year, which has a number of public grandstands, and if you pay the extra to book a grandstand seat then you know you have a guaranteed place, with a good view of the action, which you can use as much or as little as you like during the day. Admissions to FoS are now by advance ticket only, and are now sold out both main days well before the event. Okay, so adding grandstand seat nearly doubles the costs of the day out per head, and you have to commit to an advance booking many many months ahead (Seats are often sold out in Feb for the event in Late June or July) but the fact that you know you’re going to get a good view makes it worth it.

Goodwood FoS is to me, even as an aviation rather than a car enthusiast, better value than Legends – after all, the action on track starts at 9:00am, and runs through till the show closes at around 6:00am. Crowd numbers are strictly limited by use of the advanced ticket only method, and although hospitality suites do occupy some of the crowd line, there is plenty of space for the “paying punter” too.

I am more than happy to spend £120 on two entries and two grandstand seats for a Goodwood FoS “show” that lasts all day, with action going on in more than one place at most periods. I also get full, unrestricted, access to the pit and paddock area without further “on the day” surcharge. They have a number of large screen displays so that you can follow the live action when it is out of your sight. I also get well managed (albeit 10mins walk from the action) parking and traffic that flows as well as can be expected given the numbers involved.

Perhaps paying £60 for two entries into a crowded Legends, with an afternoon-only flying display, a high chance of remote parking unless i am there at the crack of dawn, and no guarantee of a decent view from the packed crowd line doesn’t seem such good value…..:diablo:

Don’t get me wrong, I’ll still go to Legends, but perhaps some lessons can be learned from other “enthusiast-lead” shows like Festival of Speed? Providing a full day’s “action” might be a good place to start, and the buy-in-advance grandstand seat idea might be worth a look, though if that means the crowd space for those that don’t buy seats becomes even smaller and more crowded then it could be counter-productive 🙁 ?

Paul F