For those who Missed it, One very fast Kangaroo

She’s not that Ugly!!!!.

Just because, the old M.S. has slipped a few notches maybe, I don’t know,

Hmmm, I do love a well done Kangaroo steak though, Had a Emu burger once too , not bad, like dark chicken, er sort of.

Let’s have a Project Oz, Like the 262 one.

Right here at the old C.A.C. site, at the bend , for history’s sake!!!.

If not. If Murray ever get’s time up the road at Wang, which is very unlikely at the moment,

He might be conned in to having a go at a new build Roo!!!

The CAC Sabre was fitted with two 30mm Aden cannon….latest UK version of a German design.

Using or developing existing [or to some others] design has been the hallmark of aviation since the beginning. What’s the problem…do we also need to have an original failure??

By the way, does anyone have a schematic of the PW R-2800 powered CAC-15?

Sorry flying pic 100.6 will not post

Sorry 🙁 , Tally Ho! Phil 😉

Flying CA-15 ?

Just a few more shots of the CA-15 😀 , Does the flying pic look real :confused: , I am not that sure, Cheers everyone, Tally Ho! Phil 😉

Allan,
It was actually the ‘original’ Woomera (the CA-4) which suffered that tragic end. From memory, it occurred somewhere around the Whittlesea area. The single CA-11 that was completed ended up being ‘converted to components’ I believe. Or in real terms – scrapped.
Interesting to hear that you were at CAC around the time of the Waimira project. That was another very enterprising venture, and had the makings to have been a great aircraft in the training role. The prototype’s definitely still around, and I was fortunate to have had a look at it a few years ago. Now if only we could get it and finish it off. Would make a great (and relatively fast) toy!
Steady on about Ballarat’s weather mate! Although I have to agree that it certainly can get cold up here. Just adds to the character of the place :). Well I had to come up with some excuse on this cold night.

Cheers,
Matt

In deed, the Woomera, another wasted opportunity? I believe the prototype crashed when a prop feathering circuit flashed causing the detonation of fuel vapour in the bottom of the fuselage, blowing the pilot clear out of the aircraft.
I am still very fond of my time at CAC and would have killed for more substantial projects to work with. As it was, there was a few Mirage wings being refurbished but the main work was on Atar overhaul with an occasional Viper, Avon and some P&W bits for the F111. When the Wamira project was scrapped it spelled the end for many of us as well as GAF. Ballarat sounds good as long as it’s in summer. That place would have to be the coldest city in Oz!
—
Allan

Well, it certainly looks as though there are a few of us “CAC nuts” around, and a common thread seems to be our lament for CAC’s demise.

I have always felt angry at the loss of this company and the destruction of any real chance we had as a nation of developing a truly independent, strong and effective air defence industry. I don’t subscribe to the idea of “letting everything be perfected overseas, then buy it” – who says that this country won’t ever be placed in the same position it was in in February ’42?

Obviously, the lessons learnt from those days have been long forgotten. CAC was established to provide Australia with an independent manufacturer and proved its worth during our darkest hours. Unfortunately, until the Sabre, none of CAC’s manufacture was sufficiently “advanced” to prove the companys capabilities (I don’t count the Mustang as it was simply a license-build – the Sabre was considerably more “Australian by comparison and was a very effective aircraft for its time. The experience gained during its manufacture should never have been lost, rather, it should have led to much more indigenous development and design.

Wirraway to Hornet has opened my eyes to the later developments within CAC, although I still haven’t finished the book. I had never heard of the Wamira, or seen photos of the jet designs the company made.

What a damned shame that all this has been lost.

Regards

Wombat

CA-11 Woomera

Hi Allan,
Well you’re going to have to try a bit harder to confuse us mate. That bird is of course the CAC CA-11 Woomera. Another CAC aircraft of which only one aircraft was completed. Others were on the assembly line when the project was axed though, and there are still numerous (albeit mainly small in size) parts getting around for the type. Have a few among my bits. The rear turret actually survives with the Moorabbin Air Museum.

It looks like you’re another CAC nut mate. Since you’re also from fairly nearby to Ballarat, maybe we’ll have to arrange a get together sometime. Could possibly have yourself, Stormbird (Phil), Duvec (Chris – I think!), myself, and any others who could make it. Mark Pilkington might like to join also, although he does already have a fair idea of what lies in the dark up here!

Cheers,
Matt

Sometimes you have to toss a hand grenade in to get some discussion going Stormbird. Of course one has to be careful not to get blown up by one’s own bomb!
Excellent commentary Mark.
Anyone able to name this?
—
Allan

Flying Kangaroo

Stormbird

I have the book referred to “Wirrway, Boomerand and CA-15 in Australian Service by Stewart Wilson. It is an excellent publication, rich in detail of the CA-15’s development, with many photos, but unfortunately, only two in the air.

The first is a rather poor quality side-on, the other a well publicised head-on. Unfortunately, I don’t have a scanner so I can’t attach photos.

Anybody interested in Australian aviation, particularly CAC’s products, needs to get their hands on this book.

Regards

Wombat

Mark,

Thank you for your lucid observations on the background to the CA15 and the Avon Sabre. As is usually the case with me, I have knowledge of elements of this jigsaw however it is putting the pieces together that places much in perspective! I shall have to go out and read some of the books discussed earlier in the thread.

Chris

CAC did very well I think.

Good to see some spark in the forum :p , I am with you Wombat and Mark and Matt 🙂 , Does anybody have some flying photos of the Roo :confused: , I am surprised that no Mustang boys have put there comments in :rolleyes: , Cheers for now, Tally Ho! Phil. 😎

CAC’s achievements should not simply be dismissed as adopting the P51 wing or simply putting an Avon Engine into the Sabre, and the depth of those design and manufacturing achievements can only be fully understood when seen in the context of “colonial” Australia and the cultural cringe it suffered in the shadow of the Mother country, certainly pre-war, but also early post war.

Wackett in the RAAF experimental station and later at CAC, and indeed Williams in the RAAF, suffered both local political and media surrender to the view heavily promoted by the Society of British Manufacturers that Australia could not possibly design and manufacture aricraft locally and instead should rely on british production.

The DC-2 performance in the 1934 air-race closed the door on bi-plane streamlined wood and fabric designs, despite an excellent and thorough development to its fullest extent by DH, and highlighted the gap between the UK and other countries in stressed skin construction techniques, the same was obvious to Australians when comparing the Scheduled airline flight of the DC-2 in the race to the winning purpose built DH88 Comet, or the NZ entered DH-89 Rapide.

This was later confirmed by Wacketts inspection of pre-war production facilities in UK and Germany, and later in the US.

When RAF AM Salmond inspected the RAAF in 1938 he refused to witness a demonstration of the first Wirraway because it was not British, and believed Australia should have waited for a british design, yet before he had returned to England the UK itself had ordered its own Harvard I’s along with Hudsons.

Australia did not have access to siginifant UK and US expertise as suggested, in fact even when Australia secured the licence production of the Beaufort, the drawings and jigs provided were deficient.

The CA-15 extended from the CA-14 Boomerang developments and in its first form could be considered a redesign of the Boomerang to engineer out the inadequacies of the Wirraway components such as steel tube fuselage, old Northrup designed 3 piece wing etc.

The early concept drawings of the CA-15 are actually more like a radial engine Spitful, and later influenced by the P-47, and it was only the lack of access of radial engines for production that resulted in the inline installation of the Griffon and the resultant dogbox radiator obviously has some P-51 influence, but to argue the Ca-15 is simply a P-51 derivative is to ignore the basic facts that the preliminary design occurred in June 42 – Jul 43 with various evolutions based on the R2800 installation through July 43 to August 44, and the Griffon re-engineering to inline commencing in September 44 to first flight in March 46.

CAC access to P-51 data commenced in January 43 with a RAAF evaluation trip to review the Spitfire, Thunderbolt and Mustang for local manufacture, the first American jigs and kits for assembly by CAC ahead of local production where not in Australia until early 1945, and they were preceeded into service by RAAF operational access to US made Mustangs in Australia in April 1945.

The CA-15 Wing is Laminar flow and introduced obviously in response to the P-51’s success but structurally the two arcraft have little in common, the CA-15 is larger in most dimensions, the fuselage is radically diffferent in shape and its design inheritance from the R2800 installation is obvious when both engine layouts are viewed together.

The CA-15 is the ultimate expression of CAC and Australia’s ability to create an aircraft manufacturing industry, not with support, but despite the active attempts to thwart it, inthe face of invasion and supply lines being cut from both the UK and USA.

The CA-27 Sabre is a lot more than a simple engine conversion in a modular aircraft design, the Avon Engine exceeded the F86 engine intake air volume capacity, and required the entire fuselage to be re-engineered to be larger, the installation of the two 40 mm cannons resulted in further relocation of fuselage systems, this was done without any major US support other the licence build support of the original design – wings etc. However the story is again more complicated by the return to a pro- british aircraft focus politically that nearly saw the RAAF adopting a Hawker design the P1081 that is yet to ever fly.

Australia’s aircraft production is a story to be proud of, the early involvement with DH and Avro, the struggle of local designs and wartime production, the post war licence production of british and US designs, the local designs that made it (Victa) and those that didnt!

Many famous world wide names are no longer with us, Avro, Hawker, Blackburn, DH, Curtiss, Lockheed, Douglas, and many were infulenced by the latest success of their contemporaries, and their wartime adversaries, CAC is a unique contribution from Australia that we are proud of.

Its fair to say the CA-15’s prototype performance was on an unarmed basis and not significantly better than Sea Fury, Bearcat etc, the remarkable thing is that it is the prototype performance and without enhancements, what it could have been – who knows, maybe an operational flop, but it is still a remarkable acheivement from a company that in February 1940 had built 45 aircraft and 50 engines, and by the start of 1945 built 1200 aircraft, including two prototype designs.

regards

Mark Pilkington

“but each of those aircraft was built by companies with many years of experience of building fighter aircraft behind them”

I think Martin-Baker only ever built 3 aircraft, the last one being the MB5.

OzMatt

I already have Wackett’s book – bought it about 20 years ago and it was what invoked my very strong interest in CAC. I am really enjoying Wirraway to Hornet – didn’t even know it existed until I spotted it in the bookshop at the War Memorial in Canberra a few months back. Expensive, but worth every cent.

I hadn’t heard about the books you mention by Meggs, but they sound as though they will be added to my shopping list regardless of cost, too.

I also have two other books which deal with our aviation industry during the pre and war years. The first is Armed and Ready, written in 1995 by AT Ross. ISBN is 0 908031 63 7. This covers the entire Australian military industry during the war, but has an excellent section on all aviation production, not just CAC. Recommend it.

The second is not so interesting, but worth it if you can find it. Australia and Imperial Defence, 1918-1939, by John McCarthy. ISBN 355 033 094. Gives an interesting insight into defence thinking (or lack of it!) during the 30’s.

Great to see a couple of other CAC nuts in this forum. Australia may not have produced any indigenous world-beaters, (and with current policy, is highly unlikely ever to do so), but CAC is a good example of Australians putting their noses to the wheel when the odds were against them. I am genuinely sorry that the Woomera and CA-15 (the name Kangaroo was never officially adopted to my knowledge) failed to make production.

Allan

I think you’re being a bit harsh on CAC’s achievement with the CA-15. You say you “worked there for 9 years”, so I assume you mean CAC, but unless you’re about 80 years of age, I doubt it was during the time of the CA-15’s development.

Why shouldn’t their achievement be acknowledged? There was no incentive for CAC to build the CA-15 as good as it was, it could have been a lesser aircraft and still been highly effective if it had been available around 1943. It’s true that its performance was probably no greater than the Tempest, late P-51’s, Ta-152, MB-5 (now that’s one square-off I would like to have seen), but each of those aircraft was built by companies with many years of experience of building fighter aircraft behind them. CAC’s experience was miniscule by comparison, yet they set out to develop an aircraft which was as good as a piston engined fighter could be, and succeeded.

Their later effort with the Sabre is again proof that this company was prepared to be innovative and take on the latest technology of the day. If I have my facts correct, the CA-27 was the best performing variant of the Sabre in the world when it was first taken into service by the RAAF. I don’t think that was an insignificant achievement either.

I’m sticking to my guns here. I’m proud of what CAC achieved and lament the fact that we don’t have any modern day Lawrence Wacketts and CAC’s developing a truly indigenous and innovative Australian aviation industry today.

Regards

Wombat

The Roo still RULES.

Good Stuff Gentleman 🙂 ,

Yes I can remember as a 15/16 year old being a mad plane nut and buming around Essendon Airport almost daily 😎 ,

It was at this time that I read and read and read Aircraft books with a passion(and still DO),
And when ever other plane nut teens would bring up there best WW2 plane :rolleyes: , I would get out a pic of the Kangaroo and tell them of her performance 😮 ,

And sorry to use the expression nearly creamed there pants 😀 , And for quiet a few years the Roo was the ace I would always pull out,

In teen disscusions on what if they built this or that,
With the MB 5 😎 a very close second, I spent years dreaming at that stage of out pacing the fastest ot fast such as the Furys and La-9s, Yaks and not to forget the Bearcat and various Brit types also German Fw-190, And Ta 152 😎 ,
All I could blow away in the Roo :rolleyes: ,
Big dreams for little boys 😮 , But at the time we just lived and breathed aircraft 😉 ,
Thanks again all 🙂 ,

I am glad the Kangaroo aroused some interest out there in cyber space 😮 , I will try to keep coming up with good ones to stir the pot with all these loyal plane nuts 😉 , Cheers for now, Tally Ho! Phil. 🙂

CA-15

Now this is my kind of thread. While the Wirraway is obviously the major interest to me from the CAC range of toys, the CA-15 isn’t all that far behind. Described in several sources as being the ‘ultimate’ single piston engined fighter, this term describes both the fact that it was essentially the last piston engined fighter of new design to commence test flying, but also the fact that its design was state of the art.

One high ranking Rolls Royce employee (from memory) commented about the aircraft having the finest installation that he had seen of the Griffon. One pilot who flew the aircraft mentioned that it was the finest Griffon powered aircraft that he had flown. For probably the only time ever (prior or since), Australia was at the cutting edge of aircraft design – albeit for a style of aircraft which was, by that time, rapidly becoming obsolete.

With a straight and level maximum achieved of speed of 448mph, using only a Griffon 61 when it was originally intended to use a Griffon of higher power output from the 120 series. However these apparently didn’t go into production. If they had, then who knows what speed might have been possible.

Wombat, if you’re reading ‘Wirraway to Hornet’, then you really are a CAC nut as you just recently mentioned. You’ll find that book an interesting read which gives a great discussion on essentially the whole range of CAC products. Probably the ultimate tomb that will ever be written on CAC will be the volume from the set of four books that Keith Meggs has written on Australian made aircraft. Not available as yet, these will be magnificent publications.

I can also highly recommend ‘Aircraft Pioneer’ which is L.J. Wackett’s autobiography. While it doesn’t go into really great detail on the aircraft, it’s fantastic if only due to learning of the many difficulties that were faced in setting up an aircraft industry in Australia. Wack was very passionate about this, and it is a great shame that we’ve essentially lost the industry that we once had.

Cheers,
Matt

This is one of my greatest loves and a real “what if?” Probably three years too late, so that by the time it flew, time had passed it by (and a few of the early jets, too!)

For those familiar with the development history of the CA-15, the way it ended up looking so similar to the P-51 from certain angles is remarkable, yet its gestation period saw it change from a proposed R-2800 radial installation to the Griffon, with the eventual appearance looking so much like its more famous colleague. Believe me, with the R-2800 proposal, it looked absolutely nothing like the Mustang.

The amazing thing is that CAC actually built both aircraft, and it’s hard to understand why the P-51 was taken up for license production when the CA-15 was still being developed. I know that the two aircraft were actually designed for different uses, but in light of the RAAF’s needs at the time, it is still difficult to comprehend a small company taking on two such large projects simultaneously. Perhaps when I finish reading my current book “Wirraway to Hornet”, a detailed history of CAC, I will have a better understanding of the matter.

I just wish the CA-15 had made production instead of the CA-18 (Australian built Mustang).

Regards (with a tear in me eye)

Wombat

This is one of my greatest loves and a real “what if?” Probably three years too late, so that by the time it flew, time had passed it by (and a few of the early jets, too!)

For those familiar with the development history of the CA-15, the way it ended up looking so similar to the P-51 from certain angles is remarkable, yet its gestation period saw it change from a proposed R-2800 radial installation to the Griffon, with the eventual appearance looking so much like its more famous colleague. Believe me, with the R-2800 proposal, it looked absolutely nothing like the Mustang.

The amazing thing is that CAC actually built both aircraft, and it’s hard to understand why the P-51 was taken up for license production when the CA-15 was still being developed. I know that the two aircraft were actually designed for different uses, but in light of the RAAF’s needs at the time, it is still difficult to comprehend a small company taking on two such large projects simultaneously. Perhaps when I finish reading my current book “Wirraway to Hornet”, a detailed history of CAC, I will have a better understanding of the matter.

I just wish the CA-15 had made production instead of the CA-18 (Australian built Mustang).

Regards (with a tear in me eye)

Wombat

The deep rear fuselage reminds me of the P-51H….
The canopy would be a hit at the Reno races.

Missed what??????????????? 😉

AHHHH picture has been added LOL, 😀

CAC 15 what a beastie spoke a guy in oz who managed to not only see the plane fly but also got a piece when they scrapped her.