Formation arrivals

Hi Steve,

Sounds like you’ve already gotten plenty of good advice concerning formation flying. It is the most fun flying I’ve ever done, but it’s also the most dangerous. Don’t fly formation with people you don’t know, don’t fly formation without a proper brief, and don’t fly formation until you’ve had instruction from a qualified instructor.

And just to let you know, my L-39 team spends a GREAT deal of time on breakups and rejoins, as well as pitch outs to landing. We’ve been doing it for years and we still are not happy with them. The perfect formation flight is a goal that is never achieved, but we try every flight.

Have fun, and fly safe!

Steve

Nice idea. Just glanced in here. Bear in mind that the buggers would want you to get closer in no doubt!! I think just plain arrivals would be a great thrill, rather than anything fancy like this – and flying into Duxford, for example, on Legends day would be a nightmare i’m sure. Perhaps a gentle flight in individually would be the best idea. And if any of you are up for it i’m sure some of the more sprightly ones would be over the moon!

I think the point is the Yak pilot was doing something different from what he reported on the radio, that’s why nobody spotted him in time.

From a bare accident report it will never be possible to reconstruct what was going through his mind to determine why he acted as he did, especially as he had done a display practice overhead the airfield earlier in the day. The big mistake seems to have been doing his low level pass away from the airfield then trying to climb back to circuit height and the IP towards existing circuit traffic without visual contact. We’ve all been in a normal circuit pattern and heard calls, but have difficulty in spotting exactly where the caller is, even when going in the same direction. With an A/G radio in the UK the operator can’t give instructions, everything is at the pilot’s discretion, so this manoeuvre couldn’t have been prevented.

I’ve had the experience of approaching NW from the east for a crosswind join for 20 with a Jet Provost in the circuit calling “a roller to land”. My understanding of RAF terminology is that a roller is a touch and go landing, so I orbited away from the airfield to allow it time to take off again and get clear of my approach path. It actually did a full stop landing, and I would have had a clear approach crosswind, but I wasn’t preared to risk this.

This is one of the points the report is making about non-standard radio calls. It can create confusion about a pilot’s intentions, and in an Air/Ground radio environment where instructions cannot be given, can lead to fatal results. Where you have a circuit with anything from gliders to fast jets, situational awareness is absolutely vital, and the clear understanding of a pilot’s intentions from radio calls are an important part of this.

The IP for runway 20 at North Weald is a small lake to the north east (just outside the Stansted CTR). From there it is a straight run in clean, not below 500 feet QFE, with a break to the right overhead runway 13/31 climbing to 800 feet to join the circuit downwind. Then you get your gear down, do your checks etc.

There is no suggestion that the Yak had even started his run in. If he had followed his initial stated intentions, and done his RIAB from a right base join ahead of the Cessna, this tragedy would never have happened. The unpredictable extra element sadly led to the deaths of three people. We all make mistakes and errors of judgment, hopefully without fatal results. The important thing is to learn from any accident report and try to ensure it doesn’t happen again.

YR

Hi Moggy, YakRider! Thanks for your insight’s.

I’m a novice, but I’ve done at least 20 high speed breaks in formation and solo (3 all by myself). What I don’t understand is why the break was conducted away from the airfield? Is this some thing you guys have seen before? Every time I’ve participated in this, it’s been straight down the runway. I don’t know about Yak’s, but doing an off runway break in a T28, and then flying the dirty plane back to the runway would be,,,,stupid,,,,,a bummer,,,potentially dangerous. Usually, the break is made, You get dirty on downwind, turn and land, no squares. Even a go around on short final, is ungood in that configuration. Not dangerous, just , not good.

Sorry dudes about beating a kinda off topic thing to death in this thread. This is the first time I’ve read one of these reports, and kinda got it. The things I got out of it is……..

1. Not getting a reply on the radio would send up a lot of flags with me.

2. Overtaking someone on base, in the pattern…..I wouldn’t do that, for any reason.

3. If you feel the need for a break, and its busy on an uncontrolled airfield, get out and wait,or, do it 1000′ above the pattern, or, get over it, and don’t do it, thats what a speed brake and space is for.

4. Doing an off-field break, isn’t a break. It’s buzzing someones house, and thats illegal.

North Weald can be quite intimidating at times. We have based fast jets including two Hunters, frequent P51 traffic as well as a newly based Spitfire and aerotow gliders flying mirror circuits to the east.

Overhead joins can be a problem because of the 1500 feet base of the Stansted CTA, with the CTR just to the north.

A very busy commercial training airfield at Stapleford Tawney is nearby to the south east, where the circuit pattern is large for noise abatement. And we also have frequent transits by microlights from two local sites. Any arrivals have to keep a very good lookout.

Since the accident they have reviewed procedures, and although RIABs can still be done, there are limitations. For example they are not allowed on Saturdays when a large open air market is held on the site, or when the aeromodellers are flying.

There is a degree of showmanship in doing RIABs, as they are not strictly necessary for energy management. The Yak pilot in the incident cited above clearly showed a lack of judgment. There is a memorial seat outside the Squadron to the two victims from the Cessna as a constant reminder for us to keep a good lookout and not show off.

YR

You’re too nice of a guy Moggy.

You never know who is reading and I live over here 😮

It’s a while since I’d read that report and it is different from how I remember it, which is probably why the perception over here is now that every thirty hour Yak Driver (I was one myself) believes the only way to land the aircraft is off a R&B and they kill a dozen people per year at least. Not true, but its hard to fight misconceptions.

The real problem with that episode seems to be

1) The gentleman using non-standard radio – calling ‘initials’ on an A/G frequency
2) The fact that when he called them he wasn’t where anybody would have expected him to be
3) Maybe a lapse in traffic scan whilst passing over a significant ground feature?

If you don’t understand what an A/G frequency consists of, do yell.

Moggy

The whole miserable saga is recorded HERE

The term ‘showboating’ comes to mind.

Moggy

Ohhhh, dude,,,WTF? I thought overheads/runs and breaks were conducted over the field. Thats the way I’ve always done it. Unbelievable, It doesn’t look like a break, it looks like he was buzzing his house. The yaks flight path makes no sense. I can’t believe someone would do that. Overtake an aircraft on base, break/buzz your house, come back to traffic pattern altitude, smash into right base cessna. Giving the “benefit” of the doubt, I guess you could say he was doing a left 270 to final. I got a warm fuzzy about where you’re coming from now. That wasn’t a break, it was a buzz. You’re too nice of a guy Moggy, “Showboating” isn’t what I’d call it. My word starts with “S” and ends with “hithead”.

The whole miserable saga is recorded HERE

The term ‘showboating’ comes to mind.

Moggy

There’s a formation week held on a regular basis at North Weald, and as mentioned there are commercial operators who run courses too.

High speed breaks don’t rock quite so much here since a pilot and his young son (?) flying a Cessna out of North Weald and positioned accurately in the circuit climb out were killed in collision with a Yak carrying out an unauthorised, unplanned and possibly badly flown run and break.

Moggy

It sounds like it happened at an uncontrolled airfield, with a pilot that flew a very low pass with an aircraft outbound in front of him. Thats a bummer that that happened. Without knowing the whole story, it sounds like carelessness and or inexperience was the major cause of the incident. When we come to an uncontrolled airfield, most of the time the overhead break is done very high, if there is traffic immediately around the field. At controlled airfields, we can do a break every time, the tower dictates altitude/floor. Did that incident cause the banning of overheads and breaks in England?

Do you guy’s have a FAST equivalent in England? I’m hoping to go to one here next year sometime. Formation flyby’s and high speed breaks ROCK!

There’s a formation week held on a regular basis at North Weald, and as mentioned there are commercial operators who run courses too.

High speed breaks don’t rock quite so much here since a pilot and his young son (?) flying a Cessna out of North Weald and positioned accurately in the circuit climb out were killed in collision with a Yak carrying out an unauthorised, unplanned and possibly badly flown run and break.

Moggy

I’ve done formation flying with T28’s here in California. All of the owners I’ve flown with have been to the FAST course. I think it’s put on by the EAA a couple of times a year. I know those guys wouldn’t even consider forming up with someone who hasn’t been through that course. As everyone has said here,super, duper, dangerous, especially with the big variation in type’s. Do you guy’s have a FAST equivalent in England? I’m hoping to go to one here next year sometime. Formation flyby’s and high speed breaks ROCK!

Steve, sorry to sound like Mr Grumpy, but I think this idea is better binned. It sounds just more trouble than it is worth.

…

Ask yourself exactly why you want to do this, and it probably boils down to exhibitionism, and the laudable wish to give the veterans a memorable trip, though to be frank, whether you arrive like the Red Arrows or ‘same way-same day’ probably will not make a lot of difference to them . I bet their preference is for a nice safe trip, which probably means a nice safe arrival, in the conventional manner.

Propstrike, on reflection I think you’re pretty much right on all counts. As I said in one of my earlier posts, the idea was born during a phone call between me and Snapper a few days ago, and so this whole exercise has predominantly been a “What if…?”. The views, opinions and advice given so far, both here and on PPRuNe, would suggest to me that it’s a non starter. It’s the old head vs heart argument again isn’t it? Heart says “would have been nice”, head says “it’s not feasible”. Okay, concept duly dropped. But as I said yesterday, at least I know that I’ve looked into it and learned a few things along the way, so it’s not been an entirely pointless process. 🙂

Ta all.

Steve

Steve, sorry to sound like Mr Grumpy, but I think this idea is better binned. It sounds just more trouble than it is worth. No controller would entertain such an idea, especially at an airshow, when everyone is keyed up. If anything goes wrong, their jobs are on the line, so ask yourself, are they likely to approve an ad hoc formation of mixed types, flown by unknown amateur pilots ( sorry but that is what we are) perform a non standard arrival.

And you want to drag the ‘formation’ in from ten miles out at Cub speeds, say 8 minutes, with the faster a/c nose high and unusually slow. Throw in the random factor that always pops up, ie someones radio fails , or maybe the viz is quite poor, or one of the passengers is feeling unwell.

Ask yourself exactly why you want to do this, and it probably boils down to exhibitionism, and the laudable wish to give the veterans a memorable trip, though to be frank, whether you arrive like the Red Arrows or ‘same way-same day’ probably will not make a lot of difference to them . I bet their preference is for a nice safe trip, which probably means a nice safe arrival, in the conventional manner.

interesting,

given the spacings you require, of what I would say would be 30+ seconds if its only one aircraft on the runway at once, and that your speeds are not abnormally high (theres no real ‘break’ as such) this should not be any cause for concern. If all aircraft bank at the same rate and roll out on same headings into downwind with the required spacings, your not going to be a problem for anyone, this is no more formation flying than following aircraft in the circuit. The actual risk in what your suggesting, which I understand to be a widely spaced trail formation, with decent and current pilots is low.

I find that some civ pilots who dont ‘have’ to do somthing with any kind of moderate risk (aero’s might be one example) dont and subconciously inhibit themselves. Whilst this is no bad thing for the warm fuzzy feeling, sometimes you learn more by actually going out and doing an excercise than by thinking it through and deciding that its too ‘dangerous’.

I wholly agree that if you wish to carry out formation manouveres such as Vics, line asterns, echelon or whatever you would be stupid and a downright liability to go out and ‘give it a go’ without any sort of training. I have done some formation flying and I wouldnt do any more without a deal of continuation training, so I do see the point.

from a flying aspect, as long as all pilots concerned are happy with the plan there is no more risk than being in the circuit.

however, convincing duxford ATC that your going to be ok is another matter, a thorough joint brief would be req’d of course, and if anything, it is they who would put the ‘safety’ anchors on anything.

Hey Steve, if you get this organised give me a shout and i’ll be there with my cameras for some ground / landing shots if you like. anything else i can do to help?
Greg

Yes, little inputs on the rudder too – again the yaw will generate a bit of roll. The secret is to make lots of small inputs and anticipate, especially with the throttle.

Also just finger and thumb on the stick (or yoke), otherwise you are too tense and that can generate unwanted inputs on the ailerons too!

Don’t even think of doing it if Angelika is in the tower 😮 😮 😮 😮

Moggy

Noted. 😉

When I started training it confused me too. One thing I realised was that you had to be much more aware of the secondary effects of using controls – generating yaw and/or roll.
YR

Bloody hell! Lesson 1 in the PPL syllabus, secondary effects of controls!

Shows just how much attention I was paying that day 🙁

Any rudder input needed?

Moggy

Please do keep the advice coming though guys, I’m learning a lot through this.

Steve

Don’t even think of doing it if Angelika is in the tower 😮 😮 😮 😮

Moggy

Guys, thanks very much for the responses so far. Certainly giving me a lot to think about, such as where to get the right training for formation work, whether the aircraft types should be more standardised, whether that many aircraft would really be necessary.

Just to clarify one point though, the idea is currently only looking at forming up at a point ten miles from the destination and keeping the formation straight and level with no height / course / speed deviations until individual aircraft break away out of the formation and into the circuit to land.

To give a little bit of background, it’s come from a conversation I had with Snapper a couple of days ago, regarding the old 609 Sqn boys who came to Legends last year. I mentioned that I’d very much like to take one of them flying next year (if of course they’d be happy for me to do so!), and the conversation then evolved into a “what if we could get enough of us together to fly the old boys in to Duxford”. So as you can see, it’s really just an embryonic idea at the moment. If it’s feasible, great (and the next stage would be me looking for other willing volunteers… 😉 ). If not, well at least I’ll know I’ve looked into it.

Please do keep the advice coming though guys, I’m learning a lot through this.

Steve