Four bladed wooden propellor Identification Help

Hi – received the following e-mail from the Fleet Air Arm Museum at Yeovilton today;-

Dear Mr. Brewer

Thank you for your recent enquiry. I can confirm that the Blackburn Firebrand TFIV had a 2,520 hp Bristol Centaurus IX engine driving a four bladed Rotol Propellor which was wood composite.
With reference to Firebrand EX724, it ditched 5 miles south east of Brighton after suffering engine failure on 18th April 1952. Commissioned Pilot J.F. Plant was picked up by a Newhaven RAF Launch
Yours Sincereley
Catherine Rounsfell
Assistant Curator
Fleet Air Arm Museum

So, this looks to be a very likely candidate – the location is right, the propellor and its construction seem right as does the engine, what happens to it now, ive no idea, for myself I would like to see it in the Museum as, I believe, that they have a cockpit section which may well be the only bit left of a Firebrand. Id like to thank every one for their help – its been most interesting, and im honestly amazed at the wealth of knowledge out there – may well be after more help in the future – once again, thanks – all the best Martin B.

Here are a few more which I don`t think have been mentioned yet.

Folland 108, 12 built, not all with the Centaurus
Hawker Tornado HG641
Fairey Spearfish, 4 built
Blackburn Firecrest, unlikely to have wooden-bladed Rotol.

At least two of these were FAA, so would have spent much of the time over the sea, being prototypes I would not be surprised if some were lost.

The Beverley always had alloy props, as did the production Ambassador.

Peter

That would put it near enough dead on where it was found – it was found off of the coast of peacehaven which is mid way between brighton and newhaven – not sure how farr off of sure but would guess a mile or so – dont know if you can work out from the coordinates i gave – would that have had wooden blades though ????

Spent an hour or so going through my post war paper files and the only RAF Brigand loss remotely off the South Coast was into Lyme Bay. So again 99.9% sure that we can eliminate that type.

That leaves the Buckingham I, Buckmaster I, Firebrand III, IV, V, VA, Beverley C.1, FAA and the civil Ambassador

Got thinking about the proximity of RNAS Ford to the trawl site..

18/4/52
Firebrand IV
EK724
827 Sqn Ford
Engine failure in flight. Ditched 5 miles South East of Brighton.
Pilot rescued by RAFHSL out of Newhaven.

Regards
Ross

To add to the Halifax debate, I can confirm they were certainly fitted to Merlin XX’s as I recovered four of them a while back! Anyway…thats a bit off track as I think we have all established, long ago, that this aint Merlin related! Andy

Have found a serial number on it – not on the actual propellor hub but on the front of the large gear just behind it – reads;-
N39/334 6 (or an f) 81 (or 7) 46FW4

Martin,

I’m amazed you were able to find any numbers at all after 60 years in salt water.

6 (or an f) 81 (or 7) 46FW4

This looks suspiciously like a part number. Bristol Engine part numbers start with ‘FB’ (or SFB) followed by five or six digits (usually starting with 1 or 2). Earlier engines seem to have five digits later (Hercules or Centaurus) engines six.

So the part number of this gear would be something like:

FB146??4

Which would not be out of place on a Centaurus.

Not sure about N39/334 but it is probably a batch number used to track parts during manufacture, inspection and service.

Unfortunately you will not find the aircraft serial number on individual engine parts but this does seem to confirm that it is a Centaurus.

WA$.

Have been onto local historian/journalist to see what hes got in his files from the possible periods – unlikely that his records are going to be as good as those of people with a genuine interest in aviation – but you never know – he might throw something up – this is getting a bit obsessive now – but its certainly interesting. thanks for all the help so far – martin b

Ok,

Scratch the wreckage of HF959 off the list as it was off Lyme Bay and well clear of the trawl.

Of the Warwicks, that only leaves the two lost on ferry flight as very remote possibilites.

To my mind I’m 99.9% certain that it’s not from a Warwick.

The Tempest wreck in the area is a Tempest V with a sabre not a Centaurus so we do not have a lot of types left.

Regards
Ross

Have found a serial number on it – not on the actual propellor hub but on the front of the large gear just behind it – reads;-
N39/334 6 (or an f) 81 (or 7) 46FW4

is that any help ??????????????

Just looking at eliminating the outside chance of the only feasible Warwick loss off the South coast.

At the moment lots going against it and only location going for it.

Regards
Ross

Yes, it looks like where we are collectively going this way.

How about the Warwick GR Mk.II (+ GR Mk.II Met) or GR Mk.V as a likely candidate?. Both saw service during the war with Centaurus engines and four bladed Rotol (most probably) wooden props?

Thanks Galdri, didn’t know that about Warwick II & V.

Not as glamorous as a Tempest II perhaps (and not necessarily a wartime loss) but more likely I think.

Got a serial number for us Ross?

WA$.

So it is possibly from a Warwick V as they were powered by Bristol Centaurus VII’s driving four-bladed Rotol propellers !!!!.

210 GR Mk.Vs were built, though just one squadron was equipped at the war’s end, No 179.

Guessing by Ross’s contribution he seems to have a theory 😉

Hi Martin B,

Is the following position close to where the prop was caught?

Latitude: 50 35 06.0 N,
Longitude: 002 47 30.0 W

Regards
Ross

Some wartime Thunderbolts had hollow steel blades, a museum in Norfolk(cant remember where) had several on display, some had been the subject of a field modification, a strip of steel had been welded onto the trailing edge from tip to near the root giving them a broader chord.
Looked a bit crude for something as precise as a propeller and the welding didnt appear too good either.

It’s not from a P-47.

The Pratt & Whitney R-2800 Double Wasp has a ‘planetary’ type of reduction gear not the Farman type that this relic has.

Don’t underestimate the strength of wood. This prop had to deal with 2300-2500hp from a Centaurus and it’s made of…wood!

WA$.

Help – its getting worse – a local “expert” has just contacted the guy with the prop and told him – no – thats not british its from a thurderbolt now, ive proved my knowledge aint that great – but from memory the thurderbolt had a four bladed hamilton aluminium bladed screw on it – suspect that with the power of the motor wood would not have stood a chance – am i right ????????????????

From what’s left of them, if anybody could work out exactly what they orginally looked like, I would be impressed!

Have been down and counted the bolts – theres 18 of them…

Centaurus it is then.

Thought it looked like a Centaurus from the reduction gear ratio. Almost all Hercules had a ratio of 0.444:1 and almost all Centaurus had a ratio of 0.400:1 so not much point in counting the teeth.

where do i go from here. ?????????

Back to identifying propeller blades!

WA$.

This reminds me that the Shetland prototype – DX166 – had Centaurus engines originally with wooden propellers.

One of the foremen at Short Brother’s Rochester works told me how they were running up the engine when the hub disintegrated and the four blades flew off in different directions. Apparently one hit the ‘boat’s chine, one hit the apron and another went into the river while the fourth flew high enough to land in a nearby playing field. 😮 Fortunately nobody was hurt and after that they refitted her with metal Hamilton blades.

The Shetland was burnt out in a fire at Felixstowe and the wreckage recovered soon afterwards – presumably with its metal propellers.

So that’s the Shetland positively ruled out then. :rolleyes:

Any further ideas anybody?

Have been down and counted the bolts – theres 18 of them – which – according to creaking door – means it was probbably originally attached to a centaurus. where do i go from here. ?????????