France confirms 3rd Mistral-class

CdG is BACK in service guys!!!

Or perhaps they don’t want the only large shipbuilding facility in the UK to become the only large shipbuilding facility in Ireland?

Re-approachment/semi-unification talks seem to be on-going… and I really don’t think they will end with the Republic of Ireland re-joining the UK, now do you?

Exactly, if a proper shipbuilding plan for the RN was instigated it would allow the shipyards to become commercially viable again, atracting overseas orders and boosting the local economy, and thus the UK economy as a whole.

The problem is millitary shipbuilding is a highly specialised area with only limited application to the commercial world.

To rebuild our commercial shipbuilding capability would require subsidies that our government are not prepared to pay.

The damage was done post war with our heavily unionised outmoded ship yards unable to compete with countries like Japan. France’s commercial shipbuilding capability has only survived because the French gov pumped the money in to keep things going.

The bitter irony is I read a report recently where it was stated that the new CVF were being built in blocks because there was no yard in the UK with the capability to build the ship in one piece. Well what about Harland and Wolf in Belfast which just happens to have a ship building basin big enough for a Nimitz class let alone CVF. If CVF was being built there we would be able to put in the logistics to support a large shipbuilding industry again and go after some of those Cruise liner and cargo ship contracts but I think a certain someone in No 10 Downing street is more interested in helping his constituency then putting in the investment to kick start our shipbuilding industry at a suitable yard.

The big difference is that the French still have a commercially viable shipbuilding industry. Recently a couple of cruise ship orders have been cancelled, and with the French CV-F delayed, and presumed cancelled, a couple of BPC orders seem to be both politically expedient and a financially sound means of insuring the survival of a strategic shipyard – until the cruise ship orders start coming in again.

Basically, Britain doesn’t have any major commercial shipyards left worth subsidizing, such is the state of its industrial sector. Does anyone need to be reminded where the QMII was built?

Exactly, if a proper shipbuilding plan for the RN was instigated it would allow the shipyards to become commercially viable again, atracting overseas orders and boosting the local economy, and thus the UK economy as a whole.

Funny how the french seem to think ordering more ships from home yards will have a positive impact on their fiscal situation wheras Brown seems to think delaying ours is the better plan.

I hate it when the french get things right 🙁

The big difference is that the French still have a commercially viable shipbuilding industry. Recently a couple of cruise ship orders have been cancelled, and with the French CV-F delayed, and presumed cancelled, a couple of BPC orders seem to be both politically expedient and a financially sound means of insuring the survival of a strategic shipyard – until the cruise ship orders start coming in again.

Basically, Britain doesn’t have any major commercial shipyards left worth subsidizing, such is the state of its industrial sector. Does anyone need to be reminded where the QMII was built?

Funny how the french seem to think ordering more ships from home yards will have a positive impact on their fiscal situation wheras Brown seems to think delaying ours is the better plan.

I hate it when the french get things right 🙁

Someone is missing the point that i was trying to make. Namely that steam is outmoded, overmanned and definately a point against the purchase of an Austin class.

Not here either ‘No but diesel is and steam is an ancient technology that is rapidly being abandoned. That these ships use that propulsion form will seriously work against any possible sale‘

Someone is missing the point that i was trying to make. Namely that steam is outmoded, overmanned and definately a point against the purchase of an Austin class.

Not this person. However, while “Obviously steam is out and diesel is in, esp. in LPDs “, for some navies “If they [Austins] are available immediately, at low purchase cost, and you’re a navy for which manpower is ralatively cheap, then they are attractive options, so long as you limit yourself to good maintenance and little else.” Especially if obtained via military aid (FMS): if you get a steam powered ship for (near) free, you can afford its higher operating costs for at least a while. Clearly it is not a long term, or ulitimate solution. But works nicely in the interim.

Obviously steam is out and diesel is in, esp. in LPDs. But that was not why I responded: I responded to the suggestion that GTUs were commonly used as propulsion in LPDs. Any other open doors?

Someone is missing the point that i was trying to make. Namely that steam is outmoded, overmanned and definately a point against the purchase of an Austin class.

No but diesel is and steam is an ancient technology that is rapidly being abandoned. That these ships use that propulsion form will seriously work against any possible sale.

Obviously steam is out and diesel is in, esp. in LPDs. But that was not why I responded: I responded to the suggestion that GTUs were commonly used as propulsion in LPDs. Any other open doors?

Indeed if manpower isn’t a deciding issue, there’s nothing wrong with a perfectly serviceable steam powered ship. India is in a different position than a Western navy and can afford the additional manning. Moreover, the Indians have maintained experience with steam propulsion and were still completing steam powered frigates in the 90s.

So an Austin-class is hardly out of place in Indian service…..although I think it is likely that a new built replacement will be procured at some point.

Steam is not just manpower intensive, it is more unreliable and thus reduces overall ship availability. The procurement of steam frigates in the 90s was part of a desire to procure local vessels, the end result was ships whose design origins lay in the 1950s. However Indian procurement is now moving headlong towards Diesel, and Gas Turbine Propulsion combined with Integrated Platform Management Systems.

Podded propulsors make tremendous sense for any large amphibious ship, but they are a fairly recent innovation that wasn’t common, or available, 10 to 15 years ago.

Direct drive diesels on conventional shafts will continue to appear for many years in new construction, though.

Who said anything about podded propulsion?

If they are available immediately, at low purchase cost, and you’re a navy for which manpower is ralatively cheap, then they are attractive options, so long as you limit yourself to good maintenance and little else.

Indeed if manpower isn’t a deciding issue, there’s nothing wrong with a perfectly serviceable steam powered ship. India is in a different position than a Western navy and can afford the additional manning. Moreover, the Indians have maintained experience with steam propulsion and were still completing steam powered frigates in the 90s.

So an Austin-class is hardly out of place in Indian service…..although I think it is likely that a new built replacement will be procured at some point.

No but diesel is and steam is an ancient technology that is rapidly being abandoned. That these ships use that propulsion form will seriously work against any possible sale.

Podded propulsors make tremendous sense for any large amphibious ship, but they are a fairly recent innovation that wasn’t common, or available, 10 to 15 years ago.

Direct drive diesels on conventional shafts will continue to appear for many years in new construction, though.

Naval Technology on San Antonio:

Global Security on San Antonio

Last of the WASP class, Makin Island LHD-8 is the first (and only) US amphibious ship to employ GTUs. Schedule to be commissioned in spring 2009.

BPE Juan Carlos is the first and only Spanish amphibious ship to employ a GTU. Will commission only in 2011 (and Aussie version 2013+)

So, in short, at this point, the only GTU amphibs in service LPD is the venerable Ivan Rogov class. The Makin – an LHD – will be the first non-russian amphib ship that will employ GTUs. Unlike Ivan Rogovs, Makin will have Electric Drive. BPE (LHDs) are not coming online for another 2 years. These LHDs are however much closer to e.g. Principe d’Asturias, Garibaldi and Cavour, Invincible class carriers (all COGAG).

So, in effect, this type of propulsion (GTU/Electric) is rather innovative in this field. Let’s not pretend it is the most common form of propulsion for LPDs.

No but diesel is and steam is an ancient technology that is rapidly being abandoned. That these ships use that propulsion form will seriously work against any possible sale.

Amphibious ships in general? Two LHDs and two LPD classes.

US: San Antonio (LPD-17) and Makin Island (LHD-8)
Russia: Ivan Rogov (Pr. 1174)
Spain: Juan Carlos (BPE)

Naval Technology on San Antonio:

Propulsion
The ship is powered by four Colt-Pielstick 2.5 STC diesel engines developing 10,400hp each. The main reduction gears from Philadelphia Gear Corp turn two shafts with Bird Johnson controllable pitch propellers. A new high-power “low-drag” propeller hub design provides improved propeller efficiency.

The ship’s electrical power is provided by five 2,500kW Caterpillar Ship Service Diesel Generators (SSDG), with self-cleaning strainers and filters and electric pumps. Seven 200t York air-conditioning units are fitted for cooling of systems and habitation. The ship auxiliary systems are all electric, including electric heating, electric water heaters and a 72,000gpd reverse osmosis water-generating plant.

Global Security on San Antonio

MAIN PROPULSION 4 – Medium Speed Turbocharged Marine Diesels
2 – Shafts
2 – Single Reversing Reduction Gears
2 – Inboard Rotating (top) Fixed Pitch Propellers

Last of the WASP class, Makin Island LHD-8 is the first (and only) US amphibious ship to employ GTUs. Schedule to be commissioned in spring 2009.

BPE Juan Carlos is the first and only Spanish amphibious ship to employ a GTU. Will commission only in 2011 (and Aussie version 2013+)

So, in short, at this point, the only GTU amphibs in service LPD is the venerable Ivan Rogov class. The Makin – an LHD – will be the first non-russian amphib ship that will employ GTUs. Unlike Ivan Rogovs, Makin will have Electric Drive. BPE (LHDs) are not coming online for another 2 years. These LHDs are however much closer to e.g. Principe d’Asturias, Garibaldi and Cavour, Invincible class carriers (all COGAG).

So, in effect, this type of propulsion (GTU/Electric) is rather innovative in this field (LPDs). Let’s not pretend it is the most common form of propulsion for LPDs.

Q: which LPDs employ gasturbines?

Amphibious ships in general? Two LHDs and two LPD classes.

US: San Antonio (LPD-17) and Makin Island (LHD-8)
Russia: Ivan Rogov (Pr. 1174)
Spain: Juan Carlos (BPE)

To ask the question, why would you buy an Austin class? even ignoring the age of the ships, they require massive crews and use steam propulsion rather then diesel, gas or a mix of one of those with electric.

If they are available immediately, at low purchase cost, and you’re a navy for which manpower is ralatively cheap, then they are attractive options, so long as you limit yourself to good maintenance and little else.

Q: which LPDs employ gasturbines?

Well, the real dream result would be MCCE buying them as a basic sealift stock for military-level flo-flo transport.

Other than that… offhand Brazil, Chile, maybe some African nation (Algeria, Egypt?) for a single unit. Perhaps some more obscure customer such as Taiwan? They’ll come on a rather stretched market at that point of time though – Italy will probably try to get rid of their LPDs too, and there’s a good number of Austins about to enter the market now, with good chances due to low prices – even with the Indian experience.

To ask the question, why would you buy an Austin class? even ignoring the age of the ships, they require massive crews and use steam propulsion rather then diesel, gas or a mix of one of those with electric.

Well, the real dream result would be MCCE buying them as a basic sealift stock for military-level flo-flo transport.

Other than that… offhand Brazil, Chile, maybe some African nation (Algeria, Egypt?) for a single unit. Perhaps some more obscure customer such as Taiwan? They’ll come on a rather stretched market at that point of time though – Italy will probably try to get rid of their LPDs too, and there’s a good number of Austins about to enter the market now, with good chances due to low prices – even with the Indian experience.