France on US hit list

Exactly Sauran. If I use history, than it is to prove a point I’m trying to make. Saying “you enjoyed 9/11” is something totally different, and had NOTHING to do with the whole thread. I find this disgusting. Maybe you guys have enjoyed 9/11, after all, how else can you find arguments? If it wasn’t of 9/11, you wouldn’t have much to say, would you. Apart from … you are a communist ofcourse.

Poor, very poor.

Originally posted by Sauron
Keltic

I am just as entitled to state my opinion about the US as you are I am I not?

Sauron

Certainly you´re, Sauron. I hope you are so vehement defending Canada.;)

You see Sauron…

this is the “attitude” of certain people in Europe…telling others to “shut up” when we are truthfully trying to put our views into it. As to Crobato’s assertions, i’ve always said don’t link anything pre1990 to now..that was a different world unless you rather live in practical communism hypocrite. Anything after 1990, well you can blame all you want on the President of the US during the majority of that decade that didn’t press ahead the advantages of the momentum of the fall of the Soviet empire…i agree.

Geforce

Well the 9/11 attack is recent history but on your point about it, we have all heard you natter on many times about 200 year old events when it suits you… if it hadn’t been for France the US would not exist, blah, blah… and other such rubbish.

I don’t think I raised the 9/11 issue nor was my comment addressed to you, but I am sorry if the fact that it happened at all conflicts with your lily-white view of the non-US world.

As for my comments above, I think they are quite reasonable. As to the shut-up…well this is a discussion forum is it not?

Regards

Sauron

Originally posted by crobato
I don’t take any satisfaction on 9/11 you ****ing *******.

Actually Sauran, this is very sad. If you can’t find any REAL arguments, than shut up. I hate this 9/11 whining. 9/11 is history, ok?

And I don’t have problems with GWB going to church. But if a European politician (even British) would dare to use the word God in a political statement, the public would ban him to the nuthouse.

Crobato

My my! Such juvenile language! However, it doesn’t advance your claim that the CIA had anything to do with the rise of the Ba ath party in Iraq. I thought my other comments about Iraq were quite reasonable.

As to the broader issue of US actions to thwart communist movements during the cold war… why would they have done otherwise? It was a means to an end. A quite satisfactory one given the nature of communism. Most of those issues have been sorted out as democratic government have evolved. Not such a bad result IMHO given the track record of communism.

I guess it’s easier to blame the US than to accept the truth about why those dictatorships existed in the first place.

Regards

Sauron

I don’t take any satisfaction on 9/11 you ****ing *******.

And where have you been in the last two or three decades or so? The US wllingly supported countries with dictatorships (Marcos, Park Dae Jung, Suharto, Pinochet, Noriega) as a front against communist and leftist rebels. Remember Allende?

I guess the forum can see why the fate of the world should not be entrusted given the opinions of ****ing jingoist *******s like you.

Keltic

I am just as entitled to state my opinion about the US as you are I am I not?

Crobato

You obviously take some satisfaction over the 9/11 attack on the US.

Where did you get the idea that the CIA was behind the rise of the Ba ath party in Iraq?

As far as the US supporting Iraq against Iran, why would it not given the relationship between the US and Iran at the time? I doubt if the US was the only western country to side with Iraq.

As to the direct sale of military equipment to Iraq, the Russians and the French appear to have been the major suppliers both before and after the Iran/Iraq war.

Sauron

Vortex,

Sales of American goods in Moslem countries have been in a decline since 9/11. This has been pointed out by American companies selling goods to these countries. You might find that includes Moslem countries outside of the Mid East, including Indonesia.

As for French connections with Iraq, why don’t you clean up your own backyard first, and find out how much the US was involved with Iraq, especially when the US sided Iraq as Iraq fought Iran. The CIA was involved in throwing out the previous regime and helped placed the Baathists in power, thinking they could put another pro-West Arab strongman in power in the region.

I keep seeing how you live in your own little world of what should be this and that, without seeing the feelings of other people in the rest of world. The gravity of opinions in articles in the media, the press from Tokyo to Jakarta has been very anti-US lately.

Re: since when…

Originally posted by Vortex
I’ve never hear of Americans telling people in Europe to vote or not to vote for a certain person….but the reverse certainly isn’t true. How many times have we hear Europeans telling us vote this way or that way?

Vortex; That´s right but the answer is quite obvious. The US president decissions as the most powerful country in the world, usually affect the rest of the world. That´s why we tend to be scared and affraid about the US elections and who rules the country.

what i remember most clearly, and hit me the most abt the powell interview were the exact words used. how french should be punished for ‘standing up to the United states’ those were the exact words used were they not.

i wonder if the massive american dislike for france is because of their stance on iraq or the fact that ‘puny little france’ dares to challange the wishes of the might US of A.

Originally posted by Sauron
Keltic

What trade sanctions are you talking about? Against who? Dosn’t the EU have trade issues of it’s own?

-Against France. It seems that now the US administration might be changing their mind.

‘Ultra neo conservatives’ Where did you get that line from? What does it mean? Perhaps you don’t like G.W. Bush because he goes to church?

-Pentagon advisers, who has launched the label WW4, make the axil of Evil concept, and points at many countries as next targets. Just because they are powerfull, and supporters of Bobb tough line…..”Have the power, change things and countries”. In fact, GWB is quite irrelevant for me, since he´s a tool by many lobbies. He´s too simple to have a definite oppinion about him. I love your assumption that I don´t like him because he goes to church, well and I go to chuch too.

Richard Perle is not part of, nor has he been part of, the current Bush administration,

-Thank godness, I put some other nice elements of the Pentagon or US current administration with really modern, open minded ideas….take a note of them. Appart from Rice and Chenney….and of course pintoresque Rumsfeld….James Woolsey.

Don’t you have enough domestic politics to worry about without concerning yourself about US politics and leaders? I don’t hear Americans telling you how to run your business.

-Of course they tell other how to run our business. I am worried as long as they interfere with my own living. This happens too often. If not…..well, we have quite enough over here, and I consider US politics as irrelevant as they consider ours. Don´t you have enough in Canadian politics to defend the US ones?

Regards

Sauron

🙂 🙂

since when…

I’ve never hear of Americans telling people in Europe to vote or not to vote for a certain person….but the reverse certainly isn’t true. How many times have we hear Europeans telling us vote this way or that way?
Crobato, i don’t think much have been released on the “dealings” with Saddam yet so just be patient. The current “embargo” on American goods is a way for people who wants to vent anger at their own demise and gee wiz what better targets than American products…its much the same reason people go for underdogs. These “feel better” actions against the established powers. Usually that’s relevant to teenagers, but some places people stop growing after age 16….

“I don’t hear Americans telling you how to run your business.”

You don’t? I hear Americans trying to run EVERYONES business. Surely I am mistaken.

Keltic

What trade sanctions are you talking about? Against who? Dosn’t the EU have trade issues of it’s own?

‘Ultra neo conservatives’ Where did you get that line from? What does it mean? Perhaps you don’t like G.W. Bush because he goes to church?

Richard Perle is not part of, nor has he been part of, the current Bush administration.

Don’t you have enough domestic politics to worry about without concerning yourself about US politics and leaders? I don’t hear Americans telling you how to run your business.

Regards

Sauron

I think France has always told the US their real intentions, at least in public. They advised many times that they didn´t want the attack, and that they would veto. So I don´t know why the US is so surprised. I see it as interfering in other country internal affairs. What surprises me most is the US stance with other SC members. Power has said, “punish France, Ignore Germany and forgive Russia”…..different standards for the same thing. I understand the US be frustrated, and upset and even keep relation at low levels. But what I don´t agree is trade santions. What I see is that some members of the current ultra neo conservatives don´t like other countries to disagree. I do hope dear friend, the american population sent these Perle, Wolfowich, Chenney to the dustbin of history. The US deserve better leaders, with capacity to accept critizism. It´s my humble oppinion.

Frankly, there is no Arab boycotting of French goods. In fact, Arabs in Saudi Arabia has been boycotting US goods. Please read up with the rest of the world, will you?

what part of “Certain European leaders made some promises last year and broke those promises” don’t you understand? and then you’re saying that’s “disagreement”. NO. When you reassures somebody that your action will be such and such, and when cruch times comes you do the exact opposite, you say that’s “disagreement”? What great value your “promises” have. Basically anything you “promise” is BS because the next day you can disagree 100%. Your words got to mean something and backed up by action or else you’re irrelevant.

Re: …

Originally posted by Vortex
thank goodness that France don’t care what the US does? Is that your pipe dream of your desires of the EU?

-Not really. Whatever the US does, the EU (or at least some countries) will continue to have an autonomous behaviour. The US administration (I don´t want to say America) should learn that WE ARE SOVEREIGN countries.

Is that what all this comes down to? It’s only OK if EU tells others what to do but not the other way around.

-Everybody is able to talk and give opinions, but not to press anyone to think as you do.

It’s interesting that the fact that EU is a political tool for France and Germany doesn’t concern you a bit.

-France and Germany are part of the EU. I can agree or disagree on what they say, the same to the US. But at the end, if one member is being attacked (FOR A QUESTION OF OPINION) it´s an attack to all members.

Their “we help you economically so now you listen to us or shut up” doesn’t concern you at all. By the time you are concerned you can’t do a thing about it because you’ll be told to “shut up”. Yet you still want it. Why? Because you’re European….humm…that’s “continentalism”. As long as you can feel proud to be an European anything’s fine eh?

-I don´t understand this argument. Could you clarify it please?.

I should add that so-called “friends” don’t stab you in the back. Certain European leaders made some promises last year and broke those promises….we don’t like to be betrayed…maybe you do that’s why when France via EU eventually comes to dealing with Spain don’t come to us to cry wolf.

-Stabb?. Bretray? That sounds a bit theatrical to me. Do you respect your friends when they don´t agree you?. You could be upset with France, but punishing them…..well that sounds a bit imperialistic to me. Bombing Paris perhaps?. Don´t worry, we won´t cry to the US, we don´t have many reasons for that.

Would you find reasonable punishing other countries for your sharing your views?. Do you find fair, imposing others your administration views?. Should France to have voted for the invasion without agreeing it?. Why does this US admistration want to create an unnecessary dispute with the allies?.

…

thank goodness that France don’t care what the US does? Is that your pipe dream of your desires of the EU? Is that what all this comes down to? It’s only OK if EU tells others what to do but not the other way around. It’s interesting that the fact that EU is a political tool for France and Germany doesn’t concern you a bit. Their “we help you economically so now you listen to us or shut up” doesn’t concern you at all. By the time you are concerned you can’t do a thing about it because you’ll be told to “shut up”. Yet you still want it. Why? Because you’re European….humm…that’s “continentalism”. As long as you can feel proud to be an European anything’s fine eh?

I should add that so-called “friends” don’t stab you in the back. Certain European leaders made some promises last year and broke those promises….we don’t like to be betrayed…maybe you do that’s why when France via EU eventually comes to dealing with Spain don’t come to us to cry wolf.