French navy and CIWS

Gun based anti-missile defences like Goalkeeper and Phalanx are still very effective and robust systems and the gun is certainly not dead.

Considering the global take up of oto guns I would think they would be shooting themselves in the foot if they gave up product support of their discontinued product lines.

I bet if you look through oto’s sales literature they have more then one upgrade program for their 40mm products.

Dead right. Their website still lists the 40mm, & offers modification kits to upgrade older versions.

http://www.otomelara.it/products/products.asp?id=prod_naval_small

The best link I have seen is the Sinodefence one which is in English Im afraid.

The type 730 is very similar (almost a copy) of the Goalkeeper with a single 7 barrel 30mm cannon.

The twin gattling gun system you are probably thinking of is the russian Kashtan system.

There’s also a European twin 25mm Gatling using a mount similar to Sea Zenith.

Interestingly, UK only started doodling with Phalanx and Goalkeer after Falklands, initially relying on Sea Wolf only. Germans have adopted RAM and like France not messed with gun CIWS, though private development included a quad 27mm system called Drakon (using gun from Tornado).

CIWS is not THE only solution.
USN is removing its on her AB class.

Now, French Navy has a solution in the couple “DAGAIE – SAGAIE “.
Very very effective.

The Aussie invention called Metal Storm has been very active lately, I have done a story on it on my site but hang on and I’ll grab the details for you, they are working on a CIWS system based on the Redback Turret

Here we are:

Not stopping there, Metal storm and ST Kinetics have released their first turret called the Redback. Basically it is a 40mm ST Automatic grenade launcher on top of a four barreled 40mm MS system coupled with an Electro Optical Systems turret. EOS having joined MS and ST only one year ago.

The Redback turret is small enough to be fitted to the Australian Army’s ASLAV’s and similar APC’s used by other countried (Strykers in America, NZSLAV’s in New Zealand). this system will give a similar protection to these vechiules as those in the Israeli army which are fitted with the Trophey system.

Here is another version of a Redback turret that can be mounted on top of a standard truck and offers troop support and even a good degree of Projectile defence.

More details about the Redback turret system including a couple of pics of it fitted to an Australian Army Truck.

I suspect that the 100mm does have a limited CIWS role, though I suspect it is not quite as effective as the Oto 76mm for that, probably in part due to the very widespread use of the Oto guns.

Now that Oto Melara is developing the DAVIDE guided 76mm round, it will make a very effective CIWS (maybe a cheaper alternative to the RAMS).

http://www.otomelara.it/products/schedule.asp?id=prod_naval_development_davide_ge

—–JT—–

Much obliged Tin, that was actually the picture I had seen (on that very thread no less), and I would still venture to say it looks like an early Goalkeeper.

As for the Chinese Type 730, I would actually guess that it uses the GAU-8 ammunition – the whole things smacks of a little ‘creative design acquisition’… I think what WisePanda was meaning by ‘is there any french links to the Type 730 ciws’ was whether the Type 730 technology was acquired from France. I suspect the Chinese obtained the technology from a variety of countries – probably obtained the cannon design from France (easier when they are closing down a project using the design, thus disposing of documents), mount design from the Dutch (or Goalkeeper customer), and the systems integration from Russia…

Does the Chinese Type 730 fire Russian or Oerlikon/GAU-8 type ammunition?

I don’t think its ever been made clear, considering China operates the AK630 (and makes a copy I think) I would presume it uses a version of that types ammunition.

The best link I have seen is the Sinodefence one which is in English Im afraid.

The type 730 is very similar (almost a copy) of the Goalkeeper with a single 7 barrel 30mm cannon.

Does the Chinese Type 730 fire Russian or Oerlikon/GAU-8 type ammunition?

Tinwing: have you got a picture of the Samos/Satan, the only picture of it I have seen could well have been of an early Goalkeeper, just mislabelled, if not, it seemed very similar.

As for separation of gun and sensor, that is exactly how the Millenium gun works – it only weighs in at about 3.5tons, despite being a 35mm gun, largely due to having offboard sensors. I think the suggestion was that you could fit future combattants with one or two fire control radars in total, to control multiple RAM and Millenium gun systems.

There are pictures of both the Samos gun and the Satan fire control director in this old CIWS thread:

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=44411&page=2&pp=30&highlight=SAMOS+sataN

Notice the electro-optical sensor on top of the Samos gun and the Mistral SAMs?

is there any french links to the Type 730 ciws guns on PLAN ships ? 2 x 30mm 7 barrels I believe.

The best link I have seen is the Sinodefence one which is in English Im afraid.

The type 730 is very similar (almost a copy) of the Goalkeeper with a single 7 barrel 30mm cannon.

The twin gattling gun system you are probably thinking of is the russian Kashtan system.

is there any french links to the Type 730 ciws guns on PLAN ships ? 2 x 30mm 7 barrels I believe.

Yes Steve, they do, most French guns have at least a DP role if not a multi role. Still I think that they are refering to a smaller caliber weapon.

What interests me more is the fact that Oto mate are giving up on the 40mm turrets and going with the smaller 30mm guns. What I’d like to know is what effect will this have on those navies with the 40mm in service already (and there are a few of them), what support and spares will Oto offer after cancellation of the line?

Considering the global take up of oto guns I would think they would be shooting themselves in the foot if they gave up product support of their discontinued product lines.

I bet if you look through oto’s sales literature they have more then one upgrade program for their 40mm products.

I suspect that the 100mm does have a limited CIWS role, though I suspect it is not quite as effective as the Oto 76mm for that, probably in part due to the very widespread use of the Oto guns.

Yes Steve, they do, most French guns have at least a DP role if not a multi role. Still I think that they are refering to a smaller caliber weapon.

What interests me more is the fact that Oto mate are giving up on the 40mm turrets and going with the smaller 30mm guns. What I’d like to know is what effect will this have on those navies with the 40mm in service already (and there are a few of them), what support and spares will Oto offer after cancellation of the line?

I thought the French 100mm naval gun had a CIWS role http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_100_mm_naval_gun

Tinwing: have you got a picture of the Samos/Satan, the only picture of it I have seen could well have been of an early Goalkeeper, just mislabelled, if not, it seemed very similar.

As for separation of gun and sensor, that is exactly how the Millenium gun works – it only weighs in at about 3.5tons, despite being a 35mm gun, largely due to having offboard sensors. I think the suggestion was that you could fit future combattants with one or two fire control radars in total, to control multiple RAM and Millenium gun systems.

In fact, take a look for Samos and Satan, they were French projects for a CIWS, very similar to the Goalkeeper, but they never entered production. It used the GAU-8 30mm cannon, but apparently the French did not seem keen on using an American system, and French industry was pushing Mistral missile mounts, like the Sadral etc quite hard. They presumably decided that buying an almost off the shelf domestic system was more attractive than developing a complex new CIWS using foreign technology.

Samos/Satan was entirely different in concept from Goalkeeper – despite the shared gun mounting.

Phalanx and Goalkeeper type CIWS systems integrate the sensor and firecontrol systems into the gun mounting. This makes the system easier and cheaper to retrofit into existing ships.

The French attempted to separate the sensors from the actual gun mounting. There is some indication that the U.S. Navy was thinking along the same lines. The primary advantage is that multiple gun mounts can be controled by the same sensor/fire control package. This decreased redundacy and lowered the overall cost of procurement – at least in theory.

In reality, Samos/Satan would have been far more difficult and expensive to retrofit than Goalkeeper.

aster 15 video with an interesting footage of the pif-paf system in action

http://le.scrat.free.fr/Videos/Aster1530_Video.mpg

Sorry, I did not mean to suggest that the ESSM is not capable of anti-missile, merely that it is the RAM that is intended to provide the final protection – SM-2s, ESSMs, RAM and Phalanx all play their part (SM-2s have two main role in anti-missile work: shoot down the aircraft before it launches, and failing that, try to hit the missile).

The point I was making was that the RAM missile is the replacement for the Phalanx, which, as Vortex rightly states has little chance against the faster anti-ship missiles. I am a great fan of the ESSM, and think it should be more widely used, but if building a ship, I would certainly want RAM and/or Phalanx/Goalkeeper.