Future of 146/Avro RJ?

RE: Future of 146/Avro RJ?

Agreed.

But it was a shame that BAE were not able to see the same gap in the market as Bombardier and Embraer saw. They developed new concepts and they paid off; BAE stuck EFIS and new engines on ancient designs.

RE: Future of 146/Avro RJ?

Probably because BAe were heavily involved in the Airbus projects. The 1-11 was abandoned, despite several new design projects (the 1-11 -700 and BAC 2-11) – this was partly due to lack of interest by the flag carrier, BA. The then state owned airline was concentrating on the Boeing twinjets (737, 757) for it’s short haul and European network.

The 146 was designed to fill a niche market, and back in the 1980’s, small regional jets were seen as something of a novelty. Remember all those routes the likes of the F27 and HS748 used to fly? They have all been replaced by the ERJ-145 and CRJ variants, but turboprops were seen as the only suitable aicraft type to operate on very short routes before the 90’s arrived. This was partly due to the fact they were a lot more economical to operate than say, a 737.

While the 146 and RJ series sold well in certain markets, the arrival of the CRJ and ERJ-145 sealed it’s fate. Both of the new twinjets could fly higher, faster and further than the 146 and were very economical to operate. Now, with the ERJ-170 around the corner and the CRJ-700 already in service, the Canadian and Brazilian aircraft builders are set to dominate the regional jet market. The proposed Bae RJX project was a case of too little too late. The recent downturn in the aviation industry was just the excuse Bae Systems needed to axe the RJX. A shame.

I suppose Bae want to concentrate heavily on it’s Airbus commitments, especially with the A380 in development, not to mention the recent arrival of the A340-600.

RE: Future of 146/Avro RJ?

Does anyone know why in the 80’s the UK decided not to produce commercial aircraft anymore?

Was it a political matter stemming from the Government?

RE: Future of 146/Avro RJ?

The BAC 1-11 was the last good all round British airliner to be built. The 146 is popular in certain markets, but it is vastly underpowered and reports of fumes leaking into the cabin are all too common. They are not the most reliable of machines either – and they are not as economical as other regional jets.

Fact is, the 146/RJ/RJX are all far from perfect. The STOL capabilties do the type credit, but they are more costly to maintain – The engines on the early 146 examples are shocking.

I’m sorry If you don’t agree with this, but I live in the real world. The production life of this aicraft is now history.

RE: Future of 146/Avro RJ?

the BAe 146, as i agree was not that good of an aircraft. If it was….more airlines would have taken it. BAe 146 or the new RJ models were not that comman in the world. In S-E Asia only Druk Air had the that also becuase there airport is right in the middle of mountains and the BAe 146 provides enough power to manuver the aircraft safely. As you will see the BAe 146s radius was basically just inside Europe. It was not famous in USA, S.America, was a little in Australia and NZ(in NZ because of Qantas). But still…i quite liked it!!

RE: Future of 146/Avro RJ?

I don’t know what sources you have been reading Phantem but the 146/RJ family isn’t as highly respected on the airline scene as you think. Infact it had a niche market which it suited, and now that other aircraft are breaking into the market the aircraft is old fashioned and not competitive (because it was always a bit of a fuel gussler, and not always that popular with passengers..in fact, although quiet to people on the ground the original 146 family was notoriously noisy for it’s passengers.). My sources are primarily Industry sources and industry magazines such as Flight INternational and Airline Business.

RE: Future of 146/Avro RJ?

Glad to see I am not the only “blasphemer” here!

Why do people always defend BAE ??????

They effectively finished commercial aircraft design in the 80’s. The 146 programme was started in the 60’s, if you trace the various concepts back through time. It took 20 years to take off!

Look at what they have built which is in regular service today:

ATP – evolution of the 748 which has not sold well
J41 – evolution of the smaller Jetstreams. Actually sold reasonably well, but it was losing appeal compared to the competition
J31 – nice plane, bit long in the tooth though.
146 – ’nuff said

Basically, they decided not to design any new planes a long time ago. You cannot go on improving old designs for ever and a day and still retain a competitive advantage over the oppositon.

And don’t use the “Boeing do that but they still outsell Airbus” argument against me. They are different markets with different inherent dynamics.

Please redirect your ill feeling toward whichever reasons made BAE take the decision to get out of the commercial side of the aircraft business!

RE: Future of 146/Avro RJ?

I’m not slogging you or whatever, I’m just saying that I don’t really believe what you say is all that true, at least about the ARJ/146 series anyway. I’ve never heard anything bad about it. It has been very popular and is operated by over 50 different airlines. Even a few air forces use it for various duties. Pilots love it, passengers love it. I don’t like the jet just because it looks nice, well, I do, but that is not my primary reason. I respect it because it is different (in looks obviously) and because of its record. Very good safety record, very reliable, and, it’s popular. Rarely will you see an airliner that is as popular as this one. Most stories like that come from Boeing and its 7xx fleet of aircraft (from 707 to 777). It’s not that I don’t feel you are a credible source, it’s just that I’ve seen and heard and read from so many other sources that it is a good, worthwhile jet. I just can’t imagine that Bombardier and Embraer have better products.

RE: Future of 146/Avro RJ?

I found my quote..and I stick by it all. Please don’t slag me off because I perceive aviation in business terms, we are all entitled to our opinions and if you don’t get hung up on personal prefernces then you’ll understand my comments..here goes….

“I think the point is this, BAe have been flogging a dead horse with this one. Their 4-engined Avro RJs are simply not as economical as the new proposals from Embraer and Canadair (Bombardier). This has long been a problem and it was the aircrafts field performance that was a major selling point. Embraer have made guarantees to Crossair that their RJ170 will be able to operate on London City’s runway and so their aircraft is meeting field performance needs. As a result the more inefficent RJX family cannot compete, it’s only real advantages are noise (I’m not sure what the Embraer aircraft is like in this area) and the earlier availability of their aircraft. I have been a fan of the 146/RJ family, but can see logically why it has come to an end.
People get hung up on nostalgia and personal preference for an aircraft, but if there is no commercial benefits then you cannot expect a company to manufacture or use them on the basis that they look “nice.””

RE: Future of 146/Avro RJ?

http://www.keymags.co.uk/dcforum/DCForumID3/648.html

RE: Future of 146/Avro RJ?

And so you should “go poke yourself youpainfully rational person.”
Besides your rationale seems to be somewhat flawed.
Attachments:

RE: Future of 146/Avro RJ?

Mongu…you are fantastic! At last someone esle who sees this decision for the logic it is. I made similar statement a couple of months ago when this was first discussed on here and I think I was told to ” go stuff yourself you painfully rational person”. I’ll see if I can find my original statement and repost it here.

RE: Future of 146/Avro RJ?

I suppose maybe some of the routes it isn’t best suited for, but your post sounded like you just plain don’t like the aircraft and I don’t understand why as I’ve never heard of anyone that didn’t like it. Anybody got good pics of RJ-85’s and/or RJ-100’s? Even RJ-70’s will do, though there aren’t many of them.

RE: Future of 146/Avro RJ?

Granted, it is not bad to look at!

My point really is that on a lot of the routes this aircraft is operated on it is ineffecient in relation to the turboporp competition.

It was also marketed badly and I do not consider that the “overall package” available to the market enabled the 146 to succeed.

RE: Future of 146/Avro RJ?

mongu, I don’t like or dislike an aircraft because of the company it comes from. You need to chill out there. The 146/Avro RJ is popular because it is a good jet. It is economical, I don’t know where you got the idea it wasn’t. Better go do some research on that on my misinformed friend. You can’t compare it to a prop in terms of economy because props will always be more fuel efficient than jets as a whole. The ARJ is one of the best things to hit the airliner world since the Boeing 707. I would prefer to fly on (or just fly if I was a pilot, as I hear that pilots love the ARJ) an ARJ over a more conventional jet such as the CRJ or ERJ. The ARJ is excellent because it is quiet (do some research on that one too), econimcal, good-looking (at least in my eye….especially the 146-300/RJ-100), and best of all…..DIFFERENT! What other airliner do you know of that looks like this? None, and being different is a good thing.

RE: Future of 146/Avro RJ?

BAe cannot kick the 146s to Bhuttan, India is handling this transaction for Bhuttan. BAe 146 are actually really great for Bhuttan, i went there many years back and it was a flight that i will never forget. Totally over the Himalayas, the flight is scheduled to take 2 rounds around Mt. Everest and then head for the capital city Thimpu. In the last minutes of the flight…..you are just circling between huge mountains, its really a majestic flight!! Also i took pics of the Druk Air…BAe146 in Thimpu….i’ll get them scanned asap for u all…till then enjoy this.
Attachments:

RE: Future of 146/Avro RJ?

They might try and flog em off some 146/RJ that have returned from lease

RE: Future of 146/Avro RJ?

I know a country which will have big problems and this is Buttan and Druk Air. They only operated Bae146 and had purchased the new avros.
What will happen?. British Aeroespace will have at least to guarantee the orders.

RE: Future of 146/Avro RJ?

What are you talking about??

RE: Future of 146/Avro RJ?

there was a discussion as to this a few months back. possible
reasons were given and everyone said nice things, not like
the prick who replied to your query with blasphemous remarks.