Fw-190 in the Battle Of Britain?

It’s now “asymmetric” conflict – overwhelming equipment superiority v.They Shall Not Pass, good v.evil. The sherrif v.Billy. Malta’s Gladiators pressed on; so for while did Malaya Buffalos. So did Kamikazes. So would V-Force, like their Dads to the Ruhr. If Galland’s kit had been better than Leigh-Malory’s – FW190, or say, if Merlin had not come good by 1938, so like France/Belgium we had Hawks, or wooden Miles M.20…The (very)Few would have Kept B***ering On. More Detlings, more Plymouths. Either:
1. our Betters would have taken the deal – sea for us, land and Open Trade for the Axis, so they could purge Bolshevism for us; or:
2. after hurting us till winter, Hitler would have turned to the East. UK as an irrelevant pocket (like Channel Is./U-Boat ports, enclaves left in 1944 to starve). Regia Aeronautica’s admirable work v.RAF would have puffed Musso, so he would not have bothered with Greece. No Threat in rear: Axis would have poured its all into Barbarossa in April,1941 and defeated General Winter.

It’s the same as cussed US after Pearl not accepting the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere – just a flattering replica of the Monroe Doctrine. It was the resources of USSR that the over-populated, under-fed Axis wanted: from West and South, Germany plus its allies Bulgaria/Croatia/Finland/Hungary/Italy/Rumania/Slovenia/Slovakia/Spain/Turkey/Vichy piling in, victualled by Argentina/ Sweden/Switzerland; from East and South, Japan/Thailand,+coolies and Koreans. The brief campaigns against us were irritants, distracting the Crusade for Civilisation.

The great What if of WW2 has US/League of Nations recognising this evangelism, so not attempting Trade sanctions that provoked seizure of materiel that could not be bought, and acceleration of the Drang nach Osten. Axis’ May 1939 Pact of Steel planned that for 1942. Stalin told his August Congress that Imperialist-Finance aided that, to explain his Faustian Pact, carving up Poland &tc to build a cordon sanitaire. So: if: UK had been humbled, autumn 1940 (and if USN carriers had been in port 7/12/41), USSR, thus communism, would have expired by mid-1942.

(Some of this is Marxist revisionism, endorsing the dictator-dominator. Absolute power does corrupt absolutely. Our boys done well).

Now if some of you didn’t get that, It’s on Teletext page 210:eek:

The Law of Unintended Consequences

It’s now “asymmetric” conflict – overwhelming equipment superiority v.They Shall Not Pass, good v.evil. The sherrif v.Billy. Malta’s Gladiators pressed on; so for while did Malaya Buffalos. So did Kamikazes. So would V-Force, like their Dads to the Ruhr. If Galland’s kit had been better than Leigh-Malory’s – FW190, or say, if Merlin had not come good by 1938, so like France/Belgium we had Hawks, or wooden Miles M.20…The (very)Few would have Kept B***ering On. More Detlings, more Plymouths. Either:
1. our Betters would have taken the deal – sea for us, land and Open Trade for the Axis, so they could purge Bolshevism for us; or:
2. after hurting us till winter, Hitler would have turned to the East. UK as an irrelevant pocket (like Channel Is./U-Boat ports, enclaves left in 1944 to starve). Regia Aeronautica’s admirable work v.RAF would have puffed Musso, so he would not have bothered with Greece. No Threat in rear: Axis would have poured its all into Barbarossa in April,1941 and defeated General Winter.

It’s the same as cussed US after Pearl not accepting the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere – just a flattering replica of the Monroe Doctrine. It was the resources of USSR that the over-populated, under-fed Axis wanted: from West and South, Germany plus its allies Bulgaria/Croatia/Finland/Hungary/Italy/Rumania/Slovenia/Slovakia/Spain/Turkey/Vichy piling in, victualled by Argentina/ Sweden/Switzerland; from East and South, Japan/Thailand,+coolies and Koreans. The brief campaigns against us were irritants, distracting the Crusade for Civilisation.

The great What if of WW2 has US/League of Nations recognising this evangelism, so not attempting Trade sanctions that provoked seizure of materiel that could not be bought, and acceleration of the Drang nach Osten. Axis’ May 1939 Pact of Steel planned that for 1942. Stalin told his August Congress that Imperialist-Finance aided that, to explain his Faustian Pact, carving up Poland &tc to build a cordon sanitaire. So: if: UK had been humbled, autumn 1940 (and if USN carriers had been in port 7/12/41), USSR, thus communism, would have expired by mid-1942.

(Some of this is Marxist revisionism, endorsing the dictator-dominator. Absolute power does corrupt absolutely. Our boys done well).

If you look at the pictures on page 91 of the current Flypast, the Lightning could’nt get much lower, it only just seems to clear the small hut. Presumably it’s angle of attack means he was trying to get down to the Spitfires speed, ‘I’ll put on the brakes and he’ll fly right by’ Maverick, quote.
Looking closely again at the right hand picture though, it looks as if theres a spurt of reheat from the lower Avon, in which case the erk in the left hand picture may not have survived the incident, I know from experience, while standing near the threshold at Wattisham while the last ever RAF Phantom was on finals for the last time, he chose to deploy reheat while just overhead and accelarate away, I thought I was a goner and I wasn’t right underneath, the idiots that were, little kids whose parents should have known better, screamed in terror, but appeared to survive the incident, or did they.

If my memory serves me correctly the best solution for the Lightning driver was to attack from below in a steep climb.

Moggy

Indeed it was, such that the Lightning could get in a few shots on a pass, then continue to climb safely out of harm’s way before repeating the process at will.

In a turning, fully developed, close-in dogfight IIRC the Spit proved more of a challenge for the Lightning, but who in their right mind would get involved in that sort of scrap, when a few climbing passes, courtesy of two RR Avons with reheat potential, would keep you safely out of harm’s way. The point of a combat situation is all about “winning”, not about playing fair….so why do anything that reduces your advantage.

Paul F

If my memory serves me correctly the best solution for the Lightning driver was to attack from below in a steep climb.

Moggy

The dog fight between the Zero’s and the Tomcats was most interesting, made me think of the possible scenario considered in the Indonesian conflict where Lightnings may have faced P-51’s.

If memory serves, the RAF undertook some trials prior to that conflict – where they put up a Lightning against a BBMF Spitfire – just to see how the former would cope with a piston engined adversary.

The conclusion was (IIRC?) that the Lightning had considerable difficulty getting into a guns solution on the Spit – and that the early Firestreaks could not pick up the heat signature for a missile kill.

In order to get behind the Spit – the Lightning had to fly with everything down – flaps, gear etc

The Spit could not down the Lightning though – it was able to disengage at will.

The best solution they came up with was for the Lightning to down the Spit with its jet blast – by passing in front and opening up the throttles!!! 😮

At least that’s how I remember reading about it – though memory is a fickle thing.

Ken

While your `what if` Fw 190 thought is interesting I will have to point out that even if the Luftwaffe had these aircraft for use in the BoB there are still key points that would have meant a german failure. I believe range and loiter time would still be a key factor even for the Fw 190 over Britain. Also, proven time and again, its not what you have but how you use it. In a perfect tactical situation a Hurricane or Spitfire Mk 1 would still be able to shoot down a Fw 190 or evade an attack. People also seem to forget that even if the Germans had won air superiorty in the south east of england Fighter Command would still have hampered any attempts to land on the south coast from their northern sector airfields. It is also been proven that at the time the Germans never really had the tools or equipment to launch an invasion force across the Channel.
While there is no denying that the RAF bravely fended off the Luftwaffe during the summer of 1940 a German invasion was never seriously considered by the High Command so it would not really have mattered what aircraft the the Luftwaffe had.

What if the Fw-190 had been used by the Nazis in 1940 during the Battle Of Britain how would that have changed the outcome?

Hi
Fw 187 with Lr tanks….maybe..
cheers
Jerry

What if the Fw-190 had been used by the Nazis in 1940 during the Battle Of Britain how would that have changed the outcome?

They would have been identified as captured French Curtiss Hawk 75s……:D

Well, depending on how far you take the ‘what-iffery’, my view on the question ‘What if the Fw-190 had been used by the Nazis in 1940 during the Battle Of Britain how would that have changed the outcome?’ is that the result would have been exactly the same, perhaps resulting in an even earlier Allied victory than was actually the case.

Bearing in mind that the Fw190 V1 first flew in June 1939, it is not totally beyond the realms of possibility that it could have been rushed into production by the summer of 1940. This would have necessitated that the engine originally intended for it, the BMW 139, was used instead of the 801 that was eventually fitted after a redesign by Kurt Tank. This was horrendously unreliable and tended to overheat badly. These engine problems can be added to the other sundry development issues that all aircraft face, but which in our new scenario, Focke-Wulf wouldn’t have had time to fully address. This would, in my view, have outweighed any performance advantage the 190 may have had. Luftwaffe serviceability rates were critical by October 1940 and a new and highly unreliable type would have made things worse than they already were.

If we are suggesting that the 801 engined version was developed a little quicker (190A-0 models were in service, though not operational in late 1940) the problems would hardly have been better – the BMW 801 still needed a lot of work to make it a reliable, adequately cooled powerplant.

In fact, I think the nature of the Battle of Britain would not have favoured even a fully reliable Fw190 particularly. The range was not appreciably different to the 109, so loiter time would not have improved. When Fighter Command got wind of fighter sweeps aiming to erode defensive capability, they simply declined to engage. The 190 was no more of an escort fighter than a 109. Ultimately the BofB was about British fighters trying to knock down German bombers and avoid German fighters wherever possible, I don’t see what the 190 would have changed.

Why worry about FW190’s in the BoB? Imagine what could have happened in the much more likely scenario that A: Hitler doesn’t “take a break” just after Dunkirk. B: He doesn’t stop bombing of the RAF even though the Allies have bombed Berlin. C: He sees the potential of jet aircraft pre-war and have a few hundred of the 262 as a fighter by early 42. Or all of the above…

I watched that wierd film the other night, is it called Final Countdown, starring Kirk Douglas, when the Nimitz is transported back in time to face the Japanese fleet off Pearl Harbor.
On the face of it, a naff film, but quite enjoyable, fortunately with a good cast. The dog fight between the Zero’s and the Tomcats was most interesting, made me think of the possible scenario considered in the Indonesian conflict where Lightnings may have faced P-51’s.
If you have not seen the film, a/c from Nimitz are sent of to destroy the Japanese fleet, but the sad old time warp reappears and it doesn’t happen.
So, silly question, but on the same theme, what would have happened had the Jap air armada on it’s way to Pearl have dealt with a modern carrier like Nimitz, or more to the point, how would it have dealt with them, having sent most of it’s strike force off to deal with the Jap fleet, which it would inevitably have done, no real AA, nothing to deal with slow flying piston engined a/c, surely what was then arguably the most powerful carrier in the world would have not stood a chance against 1930’s technology in numbers, rather like the Bismark and Italian fleet couldn’t cope with Swordfish.
Daft comment on a silly Hollywood film, but one I find interesting.

Surely a lot would have depended on the tactics employed?

If in response to bomber losses the FWs were also leashed closer and closer to their charges I can’t see that the technical superiority they brought would have much effect.

What was the endurance difference between the FWs and the Bf109s?

Moggy

But even in the face of German air superiority, I would doubt the Brits would surrender that easily.

Come on, once their capitol had fallen they would have folded like a cheap beach chair!
Oh sorry, I was thinking of the French. 😀

Seroiusly, Hitler had his only and (probably) best shot in 1940.
Once the US got to the UK in force, there is no way the Allies would have lost.
I’m not saying that because of the Mustang or quality of US pilots, but because of sheer numbers if nothing else.

I usually can’t stand the threads that start ‘what if…’ but, ahem,

What if the Fw-190 had been used by the Nazis in 1940 during the Battle Of Britain how would that have changed the outcome?

I’m not talking about all Bf-109s being substituted for 190s just 50%, would that have allowed the Germans to win enough dogfights and possibly allow more of their bombers through to bomb towns, cities and airfields in Southern England?

Bringing in FW-190A2s and A4s alone may be decisive. No, don’t give me Mk 9 Spits or we should include D9s then. But if you include 109Fs and allow the Brits to have Mark V Spits, its still going to favor the Germans. But even in the face of German air superiority, I would doubt the Brits would surrender that easily.

Probably the same deal as if we’d had a few Boomers during the Napoleonic wars…

Vee vould be talking like zis Ja!

But if they had then we would have had MkIX spits and P51’s so a pointless argument:rolleyes: