FW-190 turning abilities

True enough. My understanding was that if a 109 didn’t have the slats the wing would stall, and the aircraft depart – a worse outcome than an aiming issue! I’m not aware that it was really possible to couple airflow actuated slats; and also if that would be beneficial in the case where one wing needed to extend the slat and the other was still OK.

Regards,

trouble was ,especially on the ‘Emil’ if only one slat deployed then the a/c tended to roll and or yaw quite badly, worst case this could cause loss of control but certainly would make gun aiming ‘interesting’.

cheers baz

Of course a theory has it that the ‘best’ fighter pilots just bounced the poor enemy and were never seen coming or going – and they didn’t mess about playing dogfights.

Regards,

From what I have read ,those tactics were well suited to the 190,and certainly was the most efficient way of air combat anyway.If they could approach unseen I would have thought it was almost every fighter pilots dream,but of course life is not always as tidy as that.

cheers baz

I meant in a combat or gun aiming sense ,you do not usually get ‘anything for nothing’ in life and in some situations the slats opening on one side only could really spoil a 109 pilots day.

True enough. My understanding was that if a 109 didn’t have the slats the wing would stall, and the aircraft depart – a worse outcome than an aiming issue! I’m not aware that it was really possible to couple airflow actuated slats; and also if that would be beneficial in the case where one wing needed to extend the slat and the other was still OK.

Returning to the 190 James,have you read anything about any 190 pilots using a bit of ‘combat flap’ to help the a/c handling in combat turns ??

No. Interesting thread, I’ve no idea as to the answer(s).

Of course a theory has it that the ‘best’ fighter pilots just bounced the poor enemy and were never seen coming or going – and they didn’t mess about playing dogfights.

Regards,

Hi Baz,
The slats were, like most of that period, aerodynamically operated, and having them interconnected wasn’t, I suspect, viable. They were there to give a little bit extra, keeping the wing from stalling, so hardly a disadvantage.

Regards,

Hi James

I meant in a combat or gun aiming sense ,you do not usually get ‘anything for nothing’ in life and in some situations the slats opening on one side only could really spoil a 109 pilots day.
Returning to the 190 James,have you read anything about any 190 pilots using a bit of ‘combat flap’ to help the a/c handling in combat turns ??
I do have ‘Alert in the West’ by Willi Heilmann,the autobio of a 190 pilot but am away from home and do not have time to read at the moment.

cheers baz

Actually,thinking about it,did the luftwaffe have any ‘carefree’ handling fighters,I believe even the 109 had an achilles heel in that some ‘Dummkopf’ 😀 (Willi ?) designed it with independant slats (ie they operated singly if that wing got to the stall angle )…bad idea if you are flying on the limits/gun aiming.

Hi Baz,
The slats were, like most of that period, aerodynamically operated, and having them interconnected wasn’t, I suspect, viable. They were there to give a little bit extra, keeping the wing from stalling, so hardly a disadvantage.

Regards,

Turning a P-47 vs a 190…..have not found a direct comparison yet, though with trials of P-47 vs other types it was a bit of a slug especially at lower altitudes. Up it the range of the bomber stream, the P-47 was more in it’s element.

Found an interesting page with lots of good wartime “secret” data vs Allied fighter types (alas no FW190 or bf109). By comparing how the 47 ran against these fighters, and how the 190 compared to those same fighters, it looks like the 47 might have had a bit of an edge at altitude……but it had the same turning weakness as the 190…..

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/p-47/p-47c-afdu.html

Also perhaps to be borne in mind would be the experience/ability/type experience of the pilots involved,an ‘experten’ would get a much tighter turn radius than a novice or indeed an ex bomber pilot,as the war progressed the german standards of training dropped off and also they started using ex bomber pilots with little or no conversion training.
On the allied side the opposite was the case,and training standards improved throughout the war.

cheers baz

All ears here, too – same impression.

Only have 200 hours on Variants 15,21,22,23,25,& 28 – but none in REAL combat.

So…?

= Tim

Don, I had the same impression about the P-47.

I will try to find a combat manual for the P-47. If it had a big advantage over the FW-190, I would imagine that it would be mentioned somewhere official.

Yes, facts are worthless, they can be used to prove anything….

LOL 😉

Anyway, let’s not get too serious about this … but it does rather look as though we’re stuck – unless of course someone wants to try to figure out if the P-47 was better at turning (right) than the Fw?

I’ve suffered under the impression the Jug was a big clumsy thing that relied on power and speed. Am I well wrong?

Don

Yes, facts are worthless, they can be used to prove anything….

Smith,
in a discussion, there’s always a proportion of speculation. If there wasn’t, it wouldn’t be a discussion but a presentation of indisputable facts. How boring would that be?

When we create our posts, we have a “quote button”. Maybe we should have a “speculate button” … :p … ?

Christer

Facts

… quite a lot of the discussions on this and other fora are based on assumptions and hearsay rather than facts …

Well said Christer, and of course facts are exactly what I am fishing for on this thread. And this forum can do very well in that regard, particularly with respect to British aircraft and personnel. There is definitely a tendency to more conjecture outside of those realms, but to my mind that is acceptable.

I open by asking for evidence of hearsay (Matte’s reported recollections of discussions with his fellow flyers). What we appear to have found is …
– references to orginal documents noting the Fw 190’s tendency to suddenly depart from a turn under certain circumstances;
– excellent descriptions, by Galdri and you, of torque effects during turns;
– recognition (of the obvious) that of necessity aircraft design is an exercise in compomise.

To my mind those three things point to the possibility that, in certain circumstances, another aircraft could have (albeit perhaps only fleeting) advantage over the Fw 190.

Whether or not the P-47 would have advantage over the Fw 190 has not been proved.

Well, baz, if you take a look at my post count since I became a member in 2000, on average little more than 20 posts a year, you can conclude that I don’t want to display my ignorance very often.

I didn’t intend to call you or anyone else ignorant but quite a lot of the discussions on this and other fora are based on assumptions and hearsay rather than facts, that’s what I meant.

Christer

Hey it is only a friendly discussion Christer 😀 remember I am an ex glider pilot too 😀 I have been an aircraft engineer for 35 + yrs and I just try and help keep some of the threads within the bounds of reality, I did not think that you were calling anybody ignorant,in fact you are always very polite on here.

regards baz

Heat? No – but it was Summer.

Here are the Boys. A bit young??

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v164/photo04/RAF2/tech1600x450.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v164/photo04/RAF2/tech2600x450.jpg

= Tim

As it so happens, baz, I did that engine change with them. Overnight!!

Who could survive without them??

= Tim

Good for you Tim,probably in a well lit and heated hangar 😉 — only joking !! some airfields were lucky to have an open blister hangar.

cheers baz

As it so happens, baz, I did that engine change with them. Overnight!!

Who could survive without them??

= Tim

SABRE an abomination?? NonSENSE! I LOVED mine. Even though I give you that the Fury & Temp II were nicer to fly.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v164/photo04/RAF2/sabre648x486.jpg

= Tim

But then again,you sir were a driver and did not have to keep the blasted thing working (esp outside in winter) 😀
if you had no trouble then I hope you sincerely thanked your engine fitters 😀

Seriously.. always great to have a real pilot on here !!
I never worry about thread drift too much.. it is what I do best 😀

regards baz

A bit off topic again, but who cares? The weather needs livening up in this part of the country.

SABRE an abomination?? NonSENSE! I LOVED mine. Even though I give you that the Fury & Temp II were nicer to fly.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v164/photo04/RAF2/sabre648x486.jpg

Just noticed in the book – at that time – our SCRAMBLE time from cockpit readiness was 25 seconds. Gold Medal??

Not sure whether the Squadron badge was designed for the Sabre, or earlier?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v164/photo04/RAF2/sabre2648x486.jpg

= Tim

How true. Some of these assumptions are unlikely to be put right now due to the fact that the documentation or necessary people are no longer available to put us right. A sad reflection but the end comes to us all eventually and for some far too soon.