German and French forces in Kosovo

I don’t believe sepperate states could solve the problems. In fact, these can make it even worse. I think it would be better if all ethnic groups were still under one leader and got some sort of autonomy (like culture, education). Don’t want to boast, but the Belgian model could have been introduced in Yugoslavia I think without having a civil war. Maybe you could claim the state was artificial, but be it so, if that could avoid thousands of human lifes.

Sure, i agreed, the “widespread” ethnic cleansing wasn’t there and NATO lied. But, now you’re insinuating that NATO killed more than the Serbs cleansed?

The cleansing wasn’t there you admit, and NATO certainly bombed and now the Albanians are getting their revenge while NATO watches. Hmmm I can be a bit slow sometimes but if there was no organised ethnic cleansing… then a large powerful force bombed the region for a month and now the Albanians are getting revenge how could it be that the Serbs have killed more than the NATO troops have killed either directly or indirectly. NATO troops have control of Kosovo. They are responsible for the region. If there is lawlessness then they are responsible, just as the US and its allies are responsible for law and order in Iraq.

now Madeline Allbright=USA

Of course… the American Secretary of State or whatever she was Pushes for something to happen and when it does I guess I should blame Bolivia or perhaps Jamaca?

Yet, you argue about people getting killed? Making a region autonomous is part of a practical solution, but arguing about it is what got people killed in the first place.

So if Mexicans in California decided to become a seperate state… not part of Mexico but Autonomous, then of course they will be allowed to do so and the UN will help make it happen. People could get killed afterall.

My point is that some people probably were getting killed by the Serbs… those that refused to move out. It was an organised removal of a group of people, not an organised killing of a people. Those people weren’t happy where they were and wanted the country they were living in to change to meet their needs. The leader of that country said no and started to force them to move out. NATO stepped in and now those people that were to be moved are basically doing the same to the Serbs.

If one country evicting a people was wrong why is NATO now supporting and aiding that now?

The money spent was supposed to stop that “from happening in Europe” as Blair repeatedly mentioned… it couldn’t be tolerated then though now it seems to be acceptable. Madeline even told off the Albanians for their actions telling them not to act like the Serbs did. They haven’t listened. In fact they are acting as the Serbs were ACCUSED of acting.

Because some ignorant and bigoted people who doesn’t even lived there have problems with the word “autonomous”.

Yeah, it had nothing to do with the KLA blowing up nightclubs and attacking police stations…

now Madeline Allbright=USA :rolleyes:
Sure, i agreed, the “widespread” ethnic cleansing wasn’t there and NATO lied. But, now you’re insinuating that NATO killed more than the Serbs cleansed? Then the question is how much cleansing in your opinion is “cost effective” since that seems to be your argument Garry? :rolleyes:
You’re having a cow with “autonomous”? Yet, you argue about people getting killed? Making a region autonomous is part of a practical solution, but arguing about it is what got people killed in the first place. Why did Kosovo happened as it did? Because some ignorant and bigoted people who doesn’t even lived there have problems with the word “autonomous”.

Allbright was Hungarian herself, right? Well, she may have been personally in favour of a military action, and so was Clinton, but that doesn’t mean the whole nation (senate) supported it.

Vortex, don’t get me wrong. I have no problems with sending a bill. After all, the European states have less financial problems than the US (thanks to EU budget-limiting). I think it’s normal we pay back a part, actually the UN should have paid, if it had a budget ofcourse. As I said, peacekeeping is a global task, it’s not up to one nation to bring peace (as in Iraq and also Kosovo), it should be supported and paid by the world community. Otherwise there can’t be no peace. That’s utopia I know.

a couple of so called “righteous” nations of Europe begged and begged us to get involved and finish off what they were doing so poorly.

According to Madeline Allbright as she was interviewed she stated it was an opportunity to “bring justice to Milosovic”. She wanted to get involved and she claimed to have pushed to make it happen… in her words.

The biggest problem isn’t all this righteousness, but the wavering inactions….which has the potential to turn those righteous calls to mere hypocrisy. That’s what get people killed.

Wavering doens’t kill people weapons do.

You got neither, don’t accuse others if the intent is for greater good.

What greater good? Why do you think things are better there? Things are actually rather worse and the genocide that we have seen no previous evidence of before is no actuall happening… NATO forces are now there to record it and see it happen every day.

You spent a fortune, killed a lot of people and what do you have to show for it? It is worse off than before.

Part of getting ground troops in Kosovo included an agreement that Kosovo would stay part of Serbia. Now NATO is violating that agreement by talking about making Kosovo an autonomous with the promise that borders will stay as they are now. Who is to say that in 5 years time they will demand Macedonia becomes part of the new greater Albania.

Now for once I agree. The US has nothing to do with it, we (Germany, France, EU) asked Clinton to send troops and other stuff, against the will of the Senate! If I can remember Clinton even had to convince the Democrats. The US envolvement was a pure economic deal. The EU even got a bill I think.
But Western-Europe didn’t start the problems in the Balkan either. However, I do believe every country or organisation as the EU/NATO should take responsabilities towards the whole world community. Therefor I think it is our duty to send peacekeepers, and without sending a bill afterwarts, but at least there should be some cooperation.

Sending the bill is the least of my concern (besides you put it in a context of more “theories” than facts)…not finishing the job with the attitude of “we’re just there as ‘peace keeper'[=do nothing] is the biggest problem”. We get accused and “credited” for not having an end plan for Iraq, but what about one for the Balkans? The biggest problem isn’t all this righteousness, but the wavering inactions….which has the potential to turn those righteous calls to mere hypocrisy. That’s what get people killed.
Back to the “sending the bill”…so why are Japanese the ones always get stucked with the “bill”, does that somehow make them the “victim” of peacekeepers? You know some people do have feeling of shame when they should’ve contributed in any means they can. Knowing that most of Europe couldn’t contribute much militarily for interventions on the scale of the Balkans, what do you expect to contribute otherwise? To me it’s all fair. You got muscles, provide the force. You got money, pay the bill. You got neither, don’t accuse others if the intent is for greater good.

try to rewrite history again Garry? I thought you don’t like Western Europeans as much as Americans…why so biased this time? We didn’t started the whole problem in the Balkans, a couple of so called “righteous” nations of Europe begged and begged us to get involved and finish off what they were doing so poorly. :rolleyes:

I’m hate to say it , but this time you’re right. :(There is not much in this war that we can be proud of …

try to rewrite history again Garry? I thought you don’t like Western Europeans as much as Americans…why so biased this time? We didn’t started the whole problem in the Balkans, a couple of so called “righteous” nations of Europe begged and begged us to get involved and finish off what they were doing so poorly. :rolleyes:

Now for once I agree. The US has nothing to do with it, we (Germany, France, EU) asked Clinton to send troops and other stuff, against the will of the Senate! If I can remember Clinton even had to convince the Democrats. The US envolvement was a pure economic deal. The EU even got a bill I think.
But Western-Europe didn’t start the problems in the Balkan either. However, I do believe every country or organisation as the EU/NATO should take responsabilities towards the whole world community. Therefor I think it is our duty to send peacekeepers, and without sending a bill afterwarts, but at least there should be some cooperation.

We didn’t started the whole problem in the Balkans

And I expect you didn’t learned how to talk proper either, eh?

There is no mandate to protect serbs because the serbs are the badguys according to those who sent in the NATO troops… ie Blair and Allbright and Clinton. Apparently it is not OK for Serb police and army units to scare Albanians from their homes but it is OK for the Albanians to scare Serbs from theirs.

The fact that the US has moved on to Afghanistan and Iraq and ignored what it helped start in Kosovo is not to its credit.

try to rewrite history again Garry? I thought you don’t like Western Europeans as much as Americans…why so biased this time? We didn’t started the whole problem in the Balkans, a couple of so called “righteous” nations of Europe begged and begged us to get involved and finish off what they were doing so poorly. :rolleyes:

Surely it is valid to ask why there is no mandate to provide secuity in Kosovo ar least to the degree that forces are authorized to use the degree of force required to protect private homes from arsonists.

There is no mandate to protect serbs because the serbs are the badguys according to those who sent in the NATO troops… ie Blair and Allbright and Clinton. Apparently it is not OK for Serb police and army units to scare Albanians from their homes but it is OK for the Albanians to scare Serbs from theirs.

The fact that the US has moved on to Afghanistan and Iraq and ignored what it helped start in Kosovo is not to its credit.

Sauron, why are you surprised nobody wants to talk about this? What about other events? As you rightly stated, only if it reflects badly on the US will people here go on about it. As to the US prison abuse in Iraq is worse than such and such…yet, the same people said things like two wrongs don’t make a right. The key point that people should remember is that hardships makes one either propel forward or backward…I wish the US can overcome our current struggle. Under that light, you understand why some don’t wish us good luck in our struggle since that points to their standing of their future.

Geforce

Europes military may not match that of the US in technical abilities but they are far from crap and are certainly capable of protecting peoples homes without violating UN rules of engagement I would hope. I agree they can’t eliminate ethnic hatred or disarm everyone.

I would prefer to leave Iraq out of this discussion but I agree that US problems there with providing public security are huge and not easily accomplished. A point never conceded by the critics who mutter constantly about “no plan”.

Surely it is valid to ask why there is no mandate to provide secuity in Kosovo ar least to the degree that forces are authorized to use the degree of force required to protect private homes from arsonists. A few years ago NATO was bombing serbs for doing the same thing. Sorry, to me this simply reinforces the notion that the UN cannot be relied upon.

Sauron

Well, I did say it in my answer: there’s simply no mandate. Look, I feel sorry for the people in the Balkans, but these problems are not new, in fact, are already 500 years old (if not older). If UN-forces didn’t interfere, that’s truely a sad thing, but it is not going to change the fact that these nations should stop fighting. NATO and the UN may assist in making a peace-proces, support it, send troops to monitor, however, if the ethnic hatred continues, there’s little we can do about this. This has nothing to do with Europe’s military capabilities being crap compared to the US. Look at Iraq, even with the US’s best intentions, they can’t persuade the people to give in their arms.

BTW, did anyone see the series “Warriors” on BBC?

Geforce

Whats wrong with me. Basically I feel fine. :p

Occasionally I get the urge to inject a little balance by posting a topic which isn’t about how evil the US is. I thought a thread about KFOR would be a break from the usual US slagging. (a friend just came back from a civilian assignment connected with SFOR) Apparently making comments about the behavour of the UN/NATO/EU troops re the burning of Serb homes is not welcome. I submit that if this was about US forces standing aside, there would be plenty of comments.

You are usually very well informed on history and on current issues. I don’t always agree with the spin you put on events but that’s fine. However. please spare me the lectures about the UN. I wasn’t born yesterday. I was expecting some debate about the situation given that this is happening close to where many members live. :confused:

Sauron

Sauron, what’s happening with you lately?

A UN-mission is always limited. Look, UN-troops can only monitor the region, they can not MAKE peace. And that’s the point of sending UN-troops, they can’t do a thing, otherwise nobody would allow them into the country. Very sarcastic indeed, UN-troops can only record the massacres that are happening. A UN-mission is of no use when the different parties don’t want to cooperate. But after a peace-proces, UN police forces can indeed, controll trafic (which is probably a very important issue).

The NATO-mission (K/SFOR) is totally different, but NATO and the EU can’t stay in the region forever. Most of the troops left the region already months ago (there are only 5000+ of them now). When there’s an uprisel of violence, NATO can scramble some troops (like French, British and Belgians some months ago), but after a while, they have to pull them back, because there’s no mandate.

I don’t think that the UN mission in Kosovo was a big success.
It was a quite limited mission with no right to interfer with the yugo troops exept for self-defense. This one showed the limits of this system and some corps used the system at their own profit.

In an other hand I guess that directing the traffic is way better than rapping and and abusing in the jails don’t you think?

Well it was covered on Canadian news and involved extensive detail. There were more than just French and German forces involved but at the time of the worst events one or the other was in command.

Typical UN mission. They are only good for standing around and directing traffic. What are they doing there if not to protect people?

I guess no one wants to discuss it because it would would compete with the constant US slagging that goes on here.

Sauron

There was a thread on this subject but it got locked.

french and belgian forces came between in metrovica , dunno where you get it from . they are peace keeping force , not the police .