German invasion of England 1940

Please don’t ‘quote’ in its entirety the post directly above. It is not necessary – Mods

Given that a sizeable number of the ‘invasion’ barges were one shot river barges, the RN might not have even had to intervene to stop any reinforcement or resupply attempts….

I am constantly amazed by the panic the German build up caused, there doesn’t seem to have been anyone, not even amongst those who had been looking at amphibious ops and knew the problems, who said…’hang on a minute, those invasion barges…they are bog standard river barges’.

LW v RN (see HMS Repulse and PoW for how that would go), then landing

Eh?

How would that work.

Send the Royal Navy a note and ask them to come down to the Channel for the Luftwaffe to attack them?

The bulk of the Home Fleet would stay comfortably out of range. With twenty four hours notice minimum once the invasion fleet sets sail for England there was no real need for them to be in reach of serious aerial attack.

The only thing that would drag the bulk of the Navy to the Channel would be the invasion itself. 60,000 men in little boats, in the dark, no effective air cover to speak of. It would have been a massacre.

Then as dawn broke and what was left of the Luftwaffe (after deducting the losses incurred in finishing off the RAF) takes to the skies what is there to say they would perform any better than at Dunkirk? Nothing.

Sure they would sink a few ships. But nothing would prevent the virtual destruction of the invasion fleet returning to France and then setting sail again with the need for some of the returning boats in the second wave to carry supplies rather than reinforcements.

There were no replacement seaborne transports left. Only the ones used in the first wave would ever be available, there would be no time to build any more before the stranded remnant of those who landed on that first morning ran out of ammunition, waiting for the reinforcements that were never going to arrive.

Moggy

LW v RN (see HMS Repulse and PoW for how that would go),

How many torpedo bombers did the Luftwaffe have in 1940?

How many armour piercing bombs did the Luftwaffe have in 1940?

What most if not everyone who brings up the Prince of Wales and Repulse as proof of how a Channel battle would go fails to mention is that at the Coral Sea battle, Admiral Crace’s cruiser and destroyer force was attacked by more or less the same number of aircraft as attacked in each wave in 1941 and got away without being hit once.

Until the Germans captured a port capable of unloading vehicles it essentially would have been a light infantry battle, which the British Army was still fully capable of fighting.

Hard to see the Germans being shut-out for long if the RAF had been annihilated. With the States not yet in the war I’d see a battle of attrition in the Channel – LW v RN (see HMS Repulse and PoW for how that would go), then landing (seaborne & airborne), beachhead and breakout – pretty much Normandy in reverse. Get as far as the main centres London, Bristol, Liverpool, Birmingham, Manchester and worry about the rest later on… who’s coming to the rescue??

Even harder to guess what they’d have done with the UK once they had it – nowhere else left to go except over here to drink the Guinness, sack the strategic peat reserves and force de Valera to up the status from ’emergency’ to ‘real mess’.

Then what? Make overtures to the States or try to forcibly control the Atlantic seaboard like the Japanese couldn’t hope to manage in the Pacific.

Either policy would have taken a lot of men and material. And all the while, the Soviet Union, would slowly be gearing up for the war Stalin always felt was inevitable…

What if’s are always interesting but I think the actual outcome of the Second World War was the only one that would not see the USSR being knee-deep in Western Europe sooner or later. That and the fact that the States would probably still have got to the bomb first would have made for really interesting second half of the forties.

Fighting off an invasion, where the capital ships could serve a useful function is much different to Dunkirk where they would have served no purpose, there being no significant German naval presence.

But the invasion was viewed differently. On the night of the 11th October the battleship Revenge and seven escorting destroyers sailed over to Cherbourg and bombarded the dock installations and any invasion shipping that was left there. A week later it was the turn of Calais. No sign of the Luftwaffe, with no other significant distractions, being able to do anything about it.

When there is a job to be done the Royal Navy never hesitated to put any of its ships in harm’s way.

Moggy

There is no doubt that most naval ships of the time were woefully under armed with respect to anti-aircraft weaponry and were thus vulnerable. Most ships of all sizes were seriously upgraded over the next few years as this was recognised.

I also feel that capital ships would not have become drawn into a battle in the confined waters of the eastern English channel/Dover straits/Thames estuary areas. They were just too valuable to lose and would thus be kept well out of the way. After all, how many capital ships were present at Dunkirk? It would also have been very difficult for them to respond from such a distance in time to cover an invasion attempt.

Rod

Maybe because other targets were attacked?
In “Pedestal” the ships were the primary targets.
And: flight crews get better. An “Dynamo” the average Stuka pilot haven’t even seen a ship.

Attacking a moving vessel in open sea is not easy, but for a dive bomber a task it can manage. Of course, it will miss 4 out of 5 bombs. But one single 500kg bomb would render any destroyer inoperable.

The bomb(s) delivered by a Stuka did not need to hit the ship to sink it!

A near miss would do the trick, with the shock waves through the water being sufficient to buckle plates and disrupt bulkheads. A case in point being the attacks on CW9 Peewit on 8 August 1940. Fusing of bombs dropped against shipping were specificially timed to give maximum effect in this respect.

It might have tempted Bismark and the other major units of the Kreigsmarine to come out and play with a little more conviction.

The Fleet destroyers played only a small part in the convoy war though.

Moggy

Fortunately Ian, we’ll never know.

I think we do. During the 1970s – not sure exactly when – the commanders on both sides, who were still alive at the time, did a war game and the Germans lost because they couldn’t replenish their supplies in sufficient volume.

Having said that the comments above about the vulnerability of naval ship to the dive bomber during WW2 are valid enough. What effect those losses would have had on the outcome of the Battle of the Atlantic cannot be defined but must be borne in mind.

Regards

I can’t find the article(s) at present, however i do recall reading that when the invasion of Britain was wargamed several times over at (i think) army staff college post war, using the plans then available from both the German and British sides, the stop lines and the other preparations put in place defeated the German invasion force every time, even if they managed to get inshore in any numbers.

I agree with much of what Moggy says in terms of what damage the RN could do, but it would still need to operate, without or with limited fighter cover and at later stages in the war the RN suffered off Greece and in the far east.

I still think that the Luftwaffe would have made serious inroads to the strength of the home fleet.

How many torpedo equipped aircraft did the Luftwaffe have at this time?

How many of the hits that damaged destroyers moving slowly in and out of Dunkirk or stationary at Dunkirk loading troops would have penetrated the deck armour of cruisers and battleships moving at high speed?

Because 60,000 was the planned strength of the first wave of Sealion, the operation we are discussing?

Moggy

Why 60000?
Take 10000 or less.
Like the Dieppe-Raid.
Which was a disaster though.

Ah.

Sealion as a subterfuge to lure the Home Fleet into range of the Luftwaffe at a cost of 60,000 soldiers?

I’m not sure even Hitler was quite that derranged, certainly at this point in the conflict.

Moggy

All of which ignores any employment by the Home Fleet of capital ships. With the country fighting for its life you can guarantee that the three battleships, two battlecruisers and eleven cruisers would be pulled into the fight in the Channel. Their actual effect on the supply lines might actually be no greater than the impact of the destroyers, but they would make a very tempting target for the divebombers. Easier to hit being larger and slower, as well as offering more kudos.

While destroyers are tricky targets, capital ships are fairly simple. They would be attacked first, also for the Propaganda value. If a few more soldiers die due to lack or aerial support, the German leadership didn’t exactly care for minimum losses.

So think. We are not talking a drawn out campaign here like Crete or Dunkirk. Only the first three or four days would matter. The losses on that first awful night as the, ill-equipped for a sea crossing, invasion fleet is slashed to pieces by the destroyers operating under the cover of darkness, and then the three days whilst the remnants return to France still under attack to pick up the second wave AND all the essential supplies for the beachead and then attempt to return to the South Coast of England.

For German leadership it would be worth a few infantrymen if they could lure the RN into a battle within range of their limited air assets. Imagine the “epic night” over with a couple of infantrymen gone plus some shipping annihilated, but the RN suffering loss of several capital ships either at battle (unlikely) or bombed or torpedoed while trying to get to the landing beaches.

True other targets were attacked, but once any German landing was ashore the Stuka would be tasked as much to close air support of the lightly armed and tank-free troops fighting to hold the beachead. They therefore couldn’t be swanning around at random looking for the destroyers that would wreak havoc amongst the surviving river barges attempting to transport the second wave.

All of which ignores any employment by the Home Fleet of capital ships. With the country fighting for its life you can guarantee that the three battleships, two battlecruisers and eleven cruisers would be pulled into the fight in the Channel. Their actual effect on the supply lines might actually be no greater than the impact of the destroyers, but they would make a very tempting target for the divebombers. Easier to hit being larger and slower, as well as offering more kudos.

Some of the crews would be more practiced, but you are ignoring my earlier point which was that to neutralise the RAF the Stukas would have to have been employed in that campaign, not withdrawn in mid August for their own safety, so some / many of those who learned their art at Dunkirk would by then already be lying scattered across the UK countryside.

So think. We are not talking a drawn out campaign here like Crete or Dunkirk. Only the first three or four days would matter. The losses on that first awful night as the, ill-equipped for a sea crossing, invasion fleet is slashed to pieces by the destroyers operating under the cover of darkness, and then the three days whilst the remnants return to France still under attack to pick up the second wave AND all the essential supplies for the beachead and then attempt to return to the South Coast of England.

There were no replacement barges. That was it. Every one lost permanently reduces the size of the fleet. Every tug lost takes the ability to tow five barges out permanently.

Moggy

Maybe because other targets were attacked?
In “Pedestal” the ships were the primary targets.
And: flight crews get better. An “Dynamo” the average Stuka pilot haven’t even seen a ship.

Attacking a moving vessel in open sea is not easy, but for a dive bomber a task it can manage. Of course, it will miss 4 out of 5 bombs. But one single 500kg bomb would render any destroyer inoperable.

Just as reminder: Operation Pedestal
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Pedestal

Just as a reminder – Operation Dynamo

Thirty nine destroyers spent ten days operating in shallow waters just off the French coast, stopping to pick up troops, manoeuvring at low speed. the Stukas having suffered none of the losses they did anyway in the BoB and certainly none that would have been required if they had stayed operational and played their part in the grounding of the RAF.

Six destroyers sunk in ten days.

What would be the losses with a reduced Stuka force spending three or four days trying to contain sixty plus destroyers operating at high speed?

Moggy

The USA surely had an interest in freedom, as it does today. But primarily it was driven by its interests.

Of course nations act in self interest…but to say the U.S. was only interested in them sells it a bit short.

As an example…MGM, the film studio that produced the film I mentioned, got itself banned from the still lucrative (pre-US entry into the war) German market for producing that film.

Look at the US volunteers for the RCAF…and the huge pro-British sentiment.
People knew Nazi Germany was a menace and that sooner or later something would have to be done.

But sooner or later, Hitler woud have come knocking.
Especially if he eventually defeated (or at least neutralized) the Soviets.
With an unchallengable force and a sole outpost of freedom on his horizon, sooner or later he would have attacked/invaded the U.K.

I’m sure the Fuhrer would’ve offered Mr Chamberlain & The British Ambassador his personal guarantees :rolleyes: 😉