Greece vs. ThyssenKrupp

Thanks, I had read of Lockheed/Navantia’s offer, but hadn’t heard of the proposed MAR buy-in (to HSY), though it makes sense as T-K is basically selling everything except submarine design which Germany thinks is strategic.

I was under the impression the MEKO upgrade would happen anyways and T-K would be at least a consultant/licensor no matter who owns HSY… Though they probably would like to dictate their combat system, etc for the Corvettes (I think it was defencenet that had a bit about some ‘Indigenous/Greek design Corvette’, but that could presumably work with T-K or DCNS combat systems).

Honestly, it seems like re-nationalizing HSY is the best bet, keeping partners more competitive on a per-project basis, and negotiate participation in exports to 3rd countries for the same types/ within capabilities of HSY.

What with T-K’s behavior dragging in the 209 AIP upgrade, I do think getting rid of them is the best bet…

I don’t know, all this story has me confused. I will wait to see the final agreement. I am surprised that they would want to stay even with 25%… Or their partner for what matters. Defencenet updated the article saying that the goverment has agreed. The actual goverment anouncement after the ministers’ meeting says that they will meed with Mr. Atzpodien on 23 December. But defencenet says that they will agree.

I don’t know anything about the MEKO program, it’s just “on paper” , so nobody knows when or what upgrade it will be. I guess they want to be sure that all systems will be theirs…

Yes, a greek design corvette was presented a few days ago to the Navy, but there were no details of what systems it would have on. Obviously, you could adjust systems to be “german” most likely, if it was to be built in Skaramanga. If there is a requirement. Apparently some know more about this mysterious corvette thing than the rest of us common mortals. Because in the previous’ goverment plan, there wasn’t supposed to be a corvette anywhere. While now suddenly defencenet talks of corvettes, a mysterious greek company goes to show a corvette design… I don’t know.

The renationalization, is what our communist party asks for (as with every privatized ex public company), but i don’t see it happening, because of the current condition of the economy and because the workers union would become too strong again and mix ties with politicians and it would end up with huge losses, a black hole for public money. At least until the greek politics change.

The next best thing would be for Tavularis to get them. But i have my doubts about EU competition laws (anti-monopoly).

On the other hand Abu Dhabi Mar should be more of a warranty for the future of the shipyards. Because theoretically, someone bigger can buy off Tavularis too anyway.

The greek state must once more distribute jobs between Skaramanga and Elefsis-Neorion shipyards. Since Elefsis will take the FREMM, if there is in deed a corvette program in preparation in the plans of the new MoD, probably the Skaramanga will get it. As well as the MEKO upgrade and the building of 2 U209AIP.

AFAIK, the greek goverment would prefer not to upgrade the 2 remaining U209 and build 2 new ones from scratch.

Thanks, I had read of Lockheed/Navantia’s offer, but hadn’t heard of the proposed MAR buy-in (to HSY), though it makes sense as T-K is basically selling everything except submarine design which Germany thinks is strategic.

I was under the impression the MEKO upgrade would happen anyways and T-K would be at least a consultant/licensor no matter who owns HSY… Though they probably would like to dictate their combat system, etc for the Corvettes (I think it was defencenet that had a bit about some ‘Indigenous/Greek design Corvette’, but that could presumably work with T-K or DCNS combat systems).

Honestly, it seems like re-nationalizing HSY is the best bet, keeping partners more competitive on a per-project basis, and negotiate participation in exports to 3rd countries for the same types/ within capabilities of HSY.

What with T-K’s behavior dragging in the 209 AIP upgrade, I do think getting rid of them is the best bet…

Bad google translation and there is some history before that. I m getting tired , that’s why i didn’t update. I ‘d rather wait for end of January for something more concrete.

A greek company ONNEX appeared as candidate. They seem to have a MoU with spanish Navantia. It was on defencenet, the link to the main article is now missing. It is still referred here:

http://www.defencenet.gr/defence/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=10034&Itemid=51

According to this, ONNEX, backed with Navantia, wanted to get the frigate program together with the shipyards. Spanish frigate with Aegis. So seems unlikely from the moment that talks resumed with the French.

Soon after that, Thyssen came back and now doesn’t want to pull out of Greece, but to keep 25% of the shipyards, while 75% will go to ABU Dhabi Mar (which is Thyssen’s partner). Atzpodien proposes a complete renegotiation of the fate of shipyards and ships built by Jan 20.

Defencenet says that the Germans will likely try to commit the goverment to take the MLU upgrade of the MEKO frigates and 4 corvettes that “according to info of the site” will be in the reviewed program of the new MoD.

In the newer link you saw:

http://www.defencenet.gr/defence/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=10071&Itemid=139

It says that Thyssen wants the above mentioned solution and that alone, because they don’t want another company to go ahead with the submarine program. Their talks with Tavoularis also failed.

Defencenet says that the possibility of Abu Dhabi (which is already a partner of Thyssen) taking over the shipyards isn’t disliked at all by the goverment, because it’s an industry giant (so the future of the shipyards looks good).

The negative aspect, is that Tavularis fails to get his hands on the shipyards.

And repeats that the Germans want to take the MEKO upgrade, the 2 U209 AIP and 4 corvettes (this corvette thing is new to us, probably defencenet has inside news about the review the new MoD is doing…?).

Thanks for the info, Aspis.

Back to the thread topic… it looks like negotiations aren’t going to ThyssenKrupp’s liking: 😎
Link (Google Translated version)

All I can say is that hopefully potential customers of T-K are taking account of it’s hostage taking behavior and “crying wolf”…

This is a little glimpse on the “unknown” history of Cyprus, and how GCs and TCs and their motherlands, were not the only forces involved.

This is the 1957 British partition plan for Cyprus, by Kirpatrick. About 40% goes to TCs, 192.000 people are moved, the turkish side will be the western. If you change the last one, the rest is what happened in 1974.

http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/2411/cypruskirkpatrick1957.jpg

Another interesting story:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4632080.stm

And another (turkish newspaper):

http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/8026/kissingerdeclassified.png

Just a small sample without using greek material or published in greek newspapers or greek Cypriot testimonies on what British and US ships were doing respectively north and southwest of Cyprus when the invasion occured.

This to show that only naive people expect “justice” or “law”. Each country has interests and that’s it. Actually Cyprus at that time was too dangerous, because of the Israel situation with the Arabs. Kissinger was afraid it would become the “Cuba of Mediterranean” and further threatening the existance of Israel, should Makarios seek help from Russians.

Quite, I was actually going to ask you about defencenet’s “allegiance” but it slipped my mind. I saw Boeing’s F-18 presentation was given a fairly good presentation (it’s not LM 🙂 ),

It is also not going to be selected unless everything comes upside down or Obama does something spectacular (i think Boeing has an industry in his originating state?).

but the coverage of the PM’s speeches seems pretty one-side (‘all our finance problems are from New Democracy’ – right, who was running things just before them?).

Yes, the New Democracy are the conservatives. The “it’s all their fault” is a returning pattern. Each time that the economy is in deep trouble that’s what you say.

On Greek economy/budget, it really seems like ending evasion and corruption will really help things from ‘both ends’: getting more tax revenue AND ‘revealing’ more of actual economy would put budget deficits as % of GDP in a more realistic light.

Yes, i wrote about it in the main forum.

It sounds like none of the exercise aircraft/ ships responded at all, only nearby jets ‘normally’ tasked for air defense/police responded. Clearly, French/NATO forces directly responding would be a new game… Not to over-state things.

Ah, you mean about the uninvited guest! From what it said, there wasn’t a dogfight, only an approach at 2 miles and then flew back. This has to do with rejection of NOTAMs, it has happened this month previously, i am too tired to search them.

Personally, I think the Greek PM giving such speeches to Cyprus Parliament is a bad idea,
given just about everybody thinks the Cypriots are scam artists (v/v Annan plan), but I have a question for you:

Ah, it wasn’t the greek PM (he was in Brussels). It was the MoD. You mean this?
http://www.defencenet.gr/defence/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=9910&Itemid=40

What wrong did he say? It’s the usual political sauce. I suspect you have a google translation error.

Yes, Cypriots were scam artists, because they were supposed to vote in a referendum , but they had to vote “yes”. Of course, then why make them vote in the first place? Just force them… The Anan (no.5) plan was a plan revision made to allow Turkey to enter the EU negotiations talks without any hindering.

Everyone knows the Anan plan (exactly because the alibi had to be widely known). The fact that for 40 years the Turkish Cypriots (that today are in 60% Turkish settlers btw) and Turkey were replying “There’s nothing to solve. First you recognize us as state, then we talk” (=once you recognize me as state, i will have no reason to “unify” with you…), is something nobody knows. We have slided from UN resolutions asking restitution of status quo ante to –> bicomunal federation–> bicomunal, bizonal federation –> confederation–> one state with 2 constituting states in a loose federation.

The Anan plan was so good for Cyprus, but didn’t even cross the mind of someone to propose it for Kosovo. Why? It was such a good plan!

Anyway, here’s the US view on this (of course there’s no mention about Kissinger or “**** your constitution”):

http://www.filefront.com/15112917/Cyp.zip

If you ask me, it leaves much aside and US is always pro-turkish, Anan plan included, but it shows a bit of history “before the Anan”. The fact that nobody has ever heard of it, is because only the Anan plan was important to become alibi for Turkey and give the Greek Cypriots a plan that could never vote.

Today, my personal take on this, is that Turkey has won, it is better probably to go to 2 separate states and that’s it, since there are too many strings attached , with the guarantors remaining they will never be safe and they have a big culture problem in that the GCs don’t feel the Turkish settlers as “Cypriots”, they regard them of a 3rd cultural entity.

Your posts motivated me to read some more on “grey area” dispute and so forth, and really the only semi-valid ‘interest’ I could detect from the Turkish side is their interest for free passage to Mediterranean in case Greece decided to extend territorial waters to it’s maximum, which would block international water passage thru Aegean. Of course, there’s no reason Turkey can’t navigate thru it’s coastal waters from Bosporus (and they have Med. ports anyways), but I can see Turkey’s interest in this:

The law of the sea predicts innocent passage. It’s not just Bosporus or Dardanelles, if you look at North Sea, between Denmark, Germany and Scandinavia, if i remember correctly, you have to pass through national water. In any case, the law allows to object in court and find a different settlement.

My question is, has Greece considered this aspect, and considered enacting a regime akin to the Bosporus regime, or simply permanently renouncing it’s right to extend waters in the ONE OR TWO island passages that would block international water passage? Because it really only seems like one or two island passages where full territorial water extension would block internatinal water passage from Bosporus to Mediterranean (ignoring coastal water passage for Turkey). Obviously, considering this would only make sense in the context of Turkey ending the other dubious disputes.

Greece has signed the law and has said that reserves the right to apply it at the appropriate time. Thoughts there are various, recently on TV i think an analyst had presented a scenario of expansion for different lenght in different places. But without an agreement or court i don’t see it happening.

Other than that, the Turkish position just seems wierder and wierder with more research, i.e. the floated notion that air-space doesn’t necessarily correspond with surface territorial soverignty: Fine, that COULD excuse marine violations, but why the AIR-SPACE violations of the Greek air-space they already recognized when territorial air-space was set-up in 50’s? (Obviously, they don’t give a ****, I’m talking merely on level of logical consistency)

You must understand that there is pretext and there is real cause for everything. Also, the series of disputes are connected to each other, not independent or at least, not all of them. If you put the puzzle pieces together, you will find that all comes down to operational control of the eastern half of the Aegean. It started about the oil, etc. Turkey’s position on airspace, in a court and based to the law of sea (which hasn’t signed) would be valid, if it wasn’t that the same law says that if you have the right to expand to 12nm water, then you must do the same with air. But this isn’t the issue. The issue is to dispute the status quo. Which is also why in 1974 they declared the eastern half of Athens FIR to be part of Istanbul FIR and in this month they rejected a NOTAM about Greece having responsibility for SAR withing Athens FIR and why they refuse to respond to greek aviation authorities. As some of our analysts have said, in a court, we wouldn’t get in everything from our initial position, but in total, we would gain more than today.

And what the Turkish PM says “you prefer 600.000 over 70mln” is a very non legal argument, but a very realistic one.
http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/2927/13997831.png

EU pressured Cyprus not to veto Turkey and in exchange to get Customs union . Turkey didnt’ apply it. The EU gave 3 years time to Turkey to apply it. The expiration date was this December and as always the entire EU backed up her member state 😀

http://euobserver.com/15/29116

Mr. Bildt between 70mln and 600k had no dilemmas.

Anyway, i think if you search somebody else has posted more details on this, but i can’t find it and i am too tired to reply more on this… I promiced myself to take Xmas vacations from AFM as of tomorrow.

Merry Xmas (anticipated).

Another thing, is that as all defence magazines, defencenet has its “flaws”. It has a line that IMO shows a preference to Typhoon , russian systems and mostly anti-LM. You can imagine yourself why. There is always a logical reason behind apparently strange things.

Quite, I was actually going to ask you about defencenet’s “allegiance” but it slipped my mind. I saw Boeing’s F-18 presentation was given a fairly good presentation (it’s not LM 🙂 ), but the coverage of the PM’s speeches seems pretty one-side (‘all our finance problems are from New Democracy’ – right, who was running things just before them?).

On Greek economy/budget, it really seems like ending evasion and corruption will really help things from ‘both ends’: getting more tax revenue AND ‘revealing’ more of actual economy would put budget deficits as % of GDP in a more realistic light.

Yes, it appears that – according to the article – there were no F3s aboard. Also there seems to be no confirmation about air combat between the seperate airforces. In other press articles there was mentioned that flew mixed COMAO packages, with up to 60 greek aircrafts partecipating in the excercize.

It sounds like none of the exercise aircraft/ ships responded at all, only nearby jets ‘normally’ tasked for air defense/police responded. Clearly, French/NATO forces directly responding would be a new game… Not to over-state things.

Personally, I think the Greek PM giving such speeches to Cyprus Parliament is a bad idea,
given just about everybody thinks the Cypriots are scam artists (v/v Annan plan), but I have a question for you:

Your posts motivated me to read some more on “grey area” dispute and so forth, and really the only semi-valid ‘interest’ I could detect from the Turkish side is their interest for free passage to Mediterranean in case Greece decided to extend territorial waters to it’s maximum, which would block international water passage thru Aegean. Of course, there’s no reason Turkey can’t navigate thru it’s coastal waters from Bosporus (and they have Med. ports anyways), but I can see Turkey’s interest in this:
My question is, has Greece considered this aspect, and considered enacting a regime akin to the Bosporus regime, or simply permanently renouncing it’s right to extend waters in the ONE OR TWO island passages that would block international water passage? Because it really only seems like one or two island passages where full territorial water extension would block internatinal water passage from Bosporus to Mediterranean (ignoring coastal water passage for Turkey). Obviously, considering this would only make sense in the context of Turkey ending the other dubious disputes.

Other than that, the Turkish position just seems wierder and wierder with more research, i.e. the floated notion that air-space doesn’t necessarily correspond with surface territorial soverignty: Fine, that COULD excuse marine violations, but why the AIR-SPACE violations of the Greek air-space they already recognized when territorial air-space was set-up in 50’s? (Obviously, they don’t give a ****, I’m talking merely on level of logical consistency)

Thanks for the update, keep it up!
I actually started checking out (GTranslating) that site (defencenet.gr) after you linked it enough 🙂

Well, when you don’t have a summary about what the article is saying, google translation from greek can often be very bad, because greek grammar is more complex than english and there are many synonyms or allegoric phrases. But in other cases you can get a generally good idea.

Another thing, is that as all defence magazines, defencenet has its “flaws”. It has a line that IMO shows a preference to Typhoon , russian systems and mostly anti-LM. You can imagine yourself why. There is always a logical reason behind apparently strange things.

Also, the owner used to be press representative of the old socialist goverment’s ministry of defence, so there is a general tendency to be more forgiving on the current (socialist) goverment and more harsh on the previous one.

Finally from time to time it gets involved on purely political arguments, not connected to defence, where again you can see the “preference” towards a certain direction as well as some sensationalism.

Once you are aware of this (and maybe more that i am not aware of either), it is still the only and best defence greek portal with everyday news.

I had seen speculation that CdG might be carrying Rafale F3 (sans AESA) for it’s Aegean exercises, but apparently only F1 and F2, according to their story on latest Turkish provocation. (…Insane…)

Yes, it appears that – according to the article – there were no F3s aboard. Also there seems to be no confirmation about air combat between the seperate airforces. In other press articles there was mentioned that flew mixed COMAO packages, with up to 60 greek aircrafts partecipating in the excercize.

It’s almost funny the “Greece’s scandalous defaults against Thyssen-Krupp” story gets dredged up in the recent English-language press’ resurrection of the old-news MPA tender cancellation…

This has nothing to do with fun or joke. Or to put it in another way. Do you think that only greek defence magazines show “preferences” towards certain interests? :rolleyes:

In Greece there’s a proverb that says “it is better to lose an eye than your good name”. Greece has earned a bad reputation for its economy, it is expected that some will have interest to use that for their interest. It’s nothing new. Of course sometimes this turns back and bites you ( which is why the frigates went directly to the French).

Thanks for the update, keep it up!
I actually started checking out (GTranslating) that site (defencenet.gr) after you linked it enough 🙂

I had seen speculation that CdG might be carrying Rafale F3 (sans AESA) for it’s Aegean exercises, but apparently only F1 and F2, according to their story on latest Turkish provocation. (…Insane…)

It’s almost funny the “Greece’s scandalous defaults against Thyssen-Krupp” story gets dredged up in the recent English-language press’ resurrection of the old-news MPA tender cancellation…

More substantively,
You mentioned possible new radar and Millenium CIWS (great), is HN considering the Type 45/SAMSON radar?
I wasn’t sure if the plan was only for Air-Warfare variants, or if a mix with ASW was planned? (or a hybrid?)

Ok ,since you asked earlier, here is the updated “gossip”.

1) DCNS finally signed the updated MoU with Tavularis, so that part of the soap opera is finished.

2) About the FREMM configuration. The negotiation committees have resumed negotiations about the final configuration.

The greek navy has raised an issue about the Herakles, that lacks Volume Search Radar and it appears that it doesn’t allow to take full advantage of the Aster 30. The idea to put a VSR on the stern, above the helicopter platform seems to be abbandoned, because the navy insists on putting a second cannon there.

But, the cannon positioning itself at that point raises another spacial problem, because below the canon, there must be an adeguate extra space for the automatic ammunition loading system. It is possible to go to a compromise by choosing Millenium, for which Oerlicon and DCNS and Thales have already concluded on a disposition of 2 such systems, diagonally on the vessel. The advantage of the Millenium is that it can be positioned in place without need to “dig” in the superstructure below.

Back to the radar issue raised, Thales “promices” an improved version of the Herakles, with greater range than the one of today (150km) , but also faster and better elaboration of the signal, so to give improved reaction time in order to be able to take advantage of the full effective range of the Aster30 (about 130km).

http://www.defencenet.gr/defence/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=9876&Itemid=139

As always, i remind that this is “gossip”, it is not over until it’s over.

MoD’s press conference today. Main points.

– The goverment has decided to appoint Lazar as the evaluation House towards which Thyssen will submit proposals for her successors.

http://www.lazarconsultants.com/

It is expected to finish with this procedure by the end of the year or in the early months of 2010.

– There is exchange of letters with Thyssen, in order to seal the oral agreement with written documents.

– He seems to say that the 2 U209 won’t be upgraded, but 2 new ones will be built.

– The greek goverment may pay the wages of the workers (3,5 mln euros/month) if it becomes financially necessary, so that the ongoing program of upgrade of the “S” class frigates doesn’t get interrupted, until the new owner steps in.

“We won’t risk the fate of the shipyards and the subs for 4 mln euros, i am clear about this. All this will be taken in account in the final settlement. We ‘re talking about contracts worth 3,2 bln euros.

– The probable end of the “arbitration”:

” There is of course the issue of the sea trials, because from the moment that we ‘ll agree to commence them, in a way, the denounced contract will be executed again. We will take that in our consideration. The right thing according to us, would be to recall the denouncing of the contract. But as rightly is pointed out in the german letter, while they don’t do that, the arbitration assumes characteristics of a mere formality that will confirm an agreement that we prepare and pursue in good faith.”

http://www.defencenet.gr/defence/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=9596&Itemid=40

Basically, as far as i understand, a new agreement will be signed , which will be later formally the “solution” of the arbitration.

Also, by recalling the denoucement of the shipyards, Thyssen would have to stay in the shipyards much longer, because she would be responsbile of the sea trials, etc. While now, she can leave and let the next owner assume those responsibilities.

Odd, that, since the Netherlands, Germany & Denmark have (or in the case of Denmark, are buying) SM2 missiles on ships with European radars – Smart-L & APAR.

Well, it’s not something official. The press, as long as you get no official news, is throwing various things. In this case it has been said that the Americans would like us to put Aegis with SM2 and are pressuring, for the fact they want a piece of the pie. Another article says that the French don’t even want to talk about it. Unless we get some official data from the navy, all this is “press rumours”.

Things are odd in general when it comes to US armament, because for example, Denmark and Germany, have SM-2. When Greece asked the SM-2 a few years ago to USA, when USA proposed to us to buy the Spruance (?) class which were SM-2 capable, they denied to export us the SM-2 (because Turkey doesn’t have it), so we refused the ships, because the only interesting feature that would justify buying a used ship with big crew requirements , was the SM-2.

USA also protested to France when the French anounced that they were selling us SCALP. USA evoked the non proliferation treaty of strategical missiles, but France didn’t waver. Probably if it was Denmark at the place of Greece, USA wouldn’t have bothered to say anything.

So, unfortunately, what happens to Denmark, isn’t always the same as what happens to Greece. Because USA has no political interests in Denmark region, only commercial.

Or for example, USA would have no problem to sell US material to Germany, Netherlands or Denmark, right? Try seeing if the client is Cyprus and see what happens. 😀 They don’t even allow us to “donate” to Cyprus decomissioned greek M-110 howitzers.

Note: It has not been written that HN actually PREFERS the SM-2, but they were only asking to know what configurations they could have available to examine.

…It has also been referred to the press, that there was interest from the HN on whether the US would release the sale of SM series of AA missiles to use in the FREMM and it appears that US ties this with the use of US radar on the ship, which if you ask me, this is something that the French have every interest to complain about. …

Odd, that, since the Netherlands, Germany & Denmark have (or in the case of Denmark, are buying) SM2 missiles on ships with European radars – Smart-L & APAR.

Thanks for the update as it were… Soap opera, indeed.

More substantively,
You mentioned possible new radar and Millenium CIWS (great), is HN considering the Type 45/SAMSON radar?
I wasn’t sure if the plan was only for Air-Warfare variants, or if a mix with ASW was planned? (or a hybrid?)

I really don’t know, meaning i haven’t read anything precise on that and with the change of goverment, even if something “substantial” had been decided, now it call change for political and/or economical reasons.

AFAIK, in defence magazines, they were presenting the Samson as one possibility, but not very likely. This is what the negotiations with the French are all about. What can be put on the vessels, at what price and where to build them. It has also been referred to the press, that there was interest from the HN on whether the US would release the sale of SM series of AA missiles to use in the FREMM and it appears that US ties this with the use of US radar on the ship, which if you ask me, this is something that the French have every interest to complain about. Anyway, i prefer the european missiles.

The HN initially had a plan-request for anti-Air Warfare (Area Defence) frigates, pretty much since the ADAMS class destroyers (with SM-1) were retired. But, it appears that the FREMM configuration will most probably be “general purpose” , once more. Mainly because:

– The French, threw on the table on their own initiative, that they ‘re willing to sell us SCALP Naval. Which wasn’t in the “plans” of the HN and now you can’t easily say “no” to that. This will require some of the A-A missile cells to be occupied by SCALP. So there you go with an initial reduction of your A-A capability.
– Given the size of the greek navy, having purely A-A frigates, seems a luxury.
– The FREMM cost a lot, so they may as well be able to do a bit of everything, like basically the current frigates of HN.

But that is just my general impression of how things go, since there isn’t something official about what’s being told in the negotiations with the French. Pretty much the only point that seems “solid” is the SCALP.

In greek fora people are still arguing of whether it should be A-A or general purpose, so you get the idea of confusion. I am more in favour of the general purpose idea , for the reasons explained above and for the fact, that if the Asters range or quantity isn’t enough for you, you can always put mobile SAMs on the islands and support the frigate’s defence from there and all that will come at lower costs. Besides, the Aegean isn’t the Pacific ocean where a frigate can have clear target and shoot at max range. There are 1000 between islands, islets and rocks that can be used by an aircraft to cover its approach towards a naval target.

Personally, for the fact alone of the high cost, i wouldn’t keep my hopes high for many “extras”.

In any case, i haven’t followed much the issue, because i don’t think there is any reliable information about it yet. Just magazine speculations or opinions about what would be better.

Thanks for the update as it were… Soap opera, indeed.

More substantively,
You mentioned possible new radar and Millenium CIWS (great), is HN considering the Type 45/SAMSON radar?
I wasn’t sure if the plan was only for Air-Warfare variants, or if a mix with ASW was planned? (or a hybrid?)

Nothing really new, but a summary of the situation, from the most official greek source to this day.

Question by leader of a minor opposition party to the minister:

– ThussenKrup has expressed her intention to move out of Skaramanga, while it is also refered that will stop paying the workers starting on Nov. 1st 2009. And this while more than 160 workers of the wheel sector of the shipyards are in desperate conditions, since they remain unpaid for 6 months and without payment of leave (meaning the money an employer pays you when he puts you on forced leave from work).

Since the position of Thyssen can only be seen as blunt blackmail against the greek state, which “gave away” the shipyards with big “dowry” in 2002 to german interests.

Since after the blackmail of Thyssen the fate of the submarine contracts are unknown and most importantly , it is unknown the fate of the Shipyards and of its workers,

the ministers are asked:

1) What do they intend to do to force Thyssen to respect her conventional obbligations for smooth continuation of the operation of the shipyards, with the full employment for all workers and and the payment of the owed sums of money to the workers of the “wheel” section?

2) Do they intend to proceed to regrouping and assume public control of the Shipyards as to deter the transfer to new private interests, which will continue their devaluation and possibly give them the “final blow”?

Reply of the MoD in the Parliament to question about Skaramanga made by the president of a minor opposition party. (copy of the Parliament’s original transcript).

– Mr. President, as you know, the Skaramanga shipyards, but also the shipbuilding sector in our country is of particular importance, not only for the industry and employment, but also for the Armed Forces, since the Navy is the main client of the shipyards.
I will also remind that in the shipyards right now 2 programs of major importance for the Navy are being made: the big program of the construction of 4 submarines, of which the 1st one has been built by ThyssenKrupp, by HDW, which is a daughter company of hers and 3 more built here and waiting for the sea trials to begin at Skaramanga, while with another contract, the upgrade of an older submarine has been completed and remains the upgrade or the construction of 2 more from scratch.

In the middle of the pre-electoral period, the Skaramanga shipyards, that is the exclusive share holder and in conseguence the mother company ThyssenKrupp proceeded to denounce the contracts for the new and the old submarines. And this was done, both by the Shipyards and by HDW herself, that is, at the end, always ThyssenKrupp, which builds submarines.

So, we received in our hands this pressuring, this blackmailing situation as soon as we formed our goverment and took our duties.
We called the representative of the company, Mr. Atzpodien and we made him clear that what primarily interests us, is to honour the agreement for the privatization of the Shipyards of 2002, which predicts specific terms concerning the way of retaining the shares and functioning of the shipyards up until the end of 2011 at least, but of course our interest is to make sure that this (the functioning of the shipyards) is ensured to happen in the long run, with stability and duration, without setting blackmailing questions and creating faits accomplis.
In conseguence, we declared that any threat for declaring halting of payments or starting procedure of bankruptcy for the Shipyards, is unacceptable.

At the same time, we agreed in substance with ThyssenKrupp for a formula (scheme) for the smooth and favourable for the greek State completion of the 2 contracts for the submarines. Because our goal is to receive, in a timetable which is also acceptable for the MoD, all the submarines, with the exception of course of the first, problematic, submarine, which carries the name “Papanikolis”, built in Kiel and the technical characteristics of which do not satisfy the greek goverment, but may possibly satisfy other countries.

Of course, after this, the procedure of surprises or faits accomplis continued. Because of that, we called Mr. Atzpodien again and finally agreed in a formula which safeguards not only the execution of the contracts for the submarines, with a way favourable for the State and the MoD and as conseguence for the public interest, but also for the future of the Shipyards.

So, it was agreed, to appoint an international evaluating House, towards which, Thyssen will submit proposals for consorciums, for company formulas, trustworthy, with financial and business depth, which could be the successors of Thyssen as the main or even the only shareholder, with the aim to ensure the functioning of the shipyards, the posts of the workers and the future of the shipbuilding sector as such.

As a conseguence, the pressure is released as far as time is concerned. We have ahead of us, a reasonable amount of time to complete this procedure. In the meantime, the works that concern the submarines will continue. The sea trials will begin. The workers will be paid. The Shipyards will operate smoothly and the MoD will continue with payments, but with an extremely cautious manner, so that the other side can’t create faits accomplis, which cannot be undone, if this becomes later necessary for the protection of the interests of the greek state.
I think that we have handled the issue with swiftness, producing results and with transparency. We protect the posts of the workers and the future of the shipyards, but also the procurement programs of the Navy, which are of great importance.

Thank you very much.

http://www.enkripto.com/2009/11/blog-post_3699.html

Also, according to defencenet:

– The “time window” for finding new owner, will be at best 3 months. This is how much Thyssen is willing to wait.
– Interestingly, the French haven’t signed the MoU with Tavoularis last week, they remain agreed oraly only. Tavularis is still in the game, but currently doesn’t seem he is any closer to getting the Shipyards.
– There is a rumour from “abroads” that the French either as DCNS or as Thales, could be buying off the entire ThyssenKrupp. This rumour has not been confimed by any official source. If it turned to be true though, Skaramanga would pass directly to the French and would become Tavularis’ competitor. 😀

http://www.defencenet.gr/defence/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=9531&Itemid=139

I think i won’t post again until something spectacular happens, because this is getting like a soap opera. :p

Today:

– The MoD met with Tavularis. No news about the content of their talks.

– According to defencenet, yesterday arrived to Athens a very high ranking french delegation of DCNS, led by the DCNS CEO and Chairman himself, Mr. Patrick Boissier. They met with Tavularis in order to update the MoU.

The conclusion of the fate of Skaramanga is important for the progress of the frigate program. According to defencenet, as soon as the new director of the Bureau of arms procurements is appointed, the negotiations with the French can resume. The final configuration of the ships is still open, since the “Heracles” is judged as “sufficient”, but other options are also taken into consideration, such as volume search radar and the installation of “Millenium”.

http://www.defencenet.gr/defence/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=9511&Itemid=139

Sounds like a smart man.

Yes, smart he is. Too smart for his own good actually. He was candidate to become his party leader, but the fact that he was too clever and ambitious made the other party members have an inferiority complex against him and the fact that he is very fat made him unpopular with the media. That’s Greece unfortunately. Where mediocrity reigns.

Anyway, the bad thing is, that smart or no smart, his party policy is to cut defence expenditures, so that won’t change. I think the only way we will have any deterrence in the future is if we buy really smart buys, that will allow not to win a war, but to simply be able to damage Turkey’s infrastructure. It is obvious that neither of the 2 big parties are ready to conserve the money for defence and find the money they need for welfare where they should find it. Greece is entering a period of appeasement policy and i suspect sooner or later we will give in to some turkish claims. In the 80s where the economy was much weaker ,we had arrived to hit a 7% of GDP for military budget. Currently we are lower than 3,5% (as a matter of fact we may be lower than 3% right now) and every politician still complains about it… And even the previous’ gov declared goal was to bring them down to 1 %.

Because, why bother finding the money for welfare from tax evasion or public sector inefficiency and overspending, when you can find them ready , at no political cost, from the defence budget? That’s the brilliant mentality of the greek politicians.

This for example are the data about 2006 VAT tax evasion.

http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/5321/45240957.jpg

First column: VAT that should have been collected (in mln euros).
Second columb: VAT effectively collected (in mln euros).
Third column: Losses from VAT non collected.
Fourth column: the non collected VAT as percentage of the total. We are the champions! 30% not collected.

In Greece’s case, the VAT not collected by the state, is 6,5 bln euros (How many Papanikolis can you buy with that!). Which is practically the amount of the entire defence budget for 1 year. Why isn’t it collected? Because of the inefficiency of the state’s controlling mechanisms, collecting mechanisms and verification procedures. Everything is done too slowly.

The real greek GDP, by modest estimates is calculated to +20% of the official one. Some arrive to to say it’s almost double as that.

That’s why i call Greece a country with poor economy, but not so poor citizens… Will any goverment do something about it? Probably only if she is FORCED to do so (by the EU). Which is also why the greek economy didn’t and won’t go bankrupt anytime soon. If a goverment HAS to, she can find money to “save” the economy at the last minute. The money is there. They just don’t want to collect it, to avoid political cost. It’s a sick mentality, but that’s how it is… The greek politicians could write a book with title “The Art of living at the edge of your economic limits”. They ‘re really experts on that. Actually they might as well give that book to Mr. Atzpodien, because the Germans aren’t used to living at the edge, they much more honest with the economics, so as soon as they run into trouble they can’t handle. While ours , when they are being told “you live at the brink”, they reply “yes, what’s news about it, we ‘ve been doing it for the past 30 years in worse conditions”…

They will probably start doing something about it when they drain all they can from the defence budget. But by then the global crisis will be over, the economy will return to positive growth and they will return to their old practices…

I agree the leaked MoU is pressure tactics, but pulling that kind of stunt while in 3-way negotiations with Gov/MoD & Elefsis is a joke. If they don’t like Tavoularis’ price offer, they don’t accept it, and the government is already interceding to make all parties happy. Thyssen *IS* seriously in trouble, financially: It’s no coincidence why they sign JV with UAE sheikhs NOW and not 5 years ago.

If Tavoularis doesn’t have the money to make Thyssen happy, and the price can’t be lowered any more, the government should either extend a loan to Elefsis with terms that ensure they get payed back, or buy back the shipyards either in full, or half with Tavoularis. … It seems strange if Greece buys them back completely for the EU fine to still be in place, though…

I agree, however as i said, it is obvious that there’s more happening here than we know. All this activity in the last 20 days is insane. First they open legal battle a few days before the elections. Then they rush to speak with the new gov and Tavularis, while in the meantime the sign MoU with someone else. Tavularis learns about it and stops negotiations. The goverment is upset so they meet again.

Giving loan to Elefsis could maybe seen as breaking competition laws from EU (which is what the original fine is about). But the vice minister of defence has already hinted that the greek state may step in and buy a share of the shipyards as part of a bigger consortium. Tavularis could jump in there too. Yes, the fine returning to the state would be very ironic. 🙂

Here’s the declarations of the MoD after last evening’s meeting with Mr. Atzpodien:

” Minister Mr. Pambukis and i received at the PM’s office the executive President of Thyssen Mr. Atzpodien in continuation of our meeting of Oct. 20.

During today’s meeting, a commonly accepted framework was shaped for the steps to take , in order to complete the scheme that has been agreed for the submarines and to find a viable solution for the Skaramanga shipyards.

The german part, will assume the responsibility to seek and propose responsible and trustworthy solutions for the Shipyards, solutions with financial and business depth. There will be formed a list of proposals which will be evaluated by a foreign House (evaluating Company), which will be chosen by the greek goverment.

In the meantime, the functioning of the shipyards will continue smoothly and the sea trials of the 3 submarines will begin as soon as possible.

The goal of the goverment is to complete as soon as possible the submarine programs and to find the more trustworthy and reliable solution for the future of the shipyards.

Until this happens, both the goverment and Thyssen, will operate in good faith, so to achieve this goal, which is a common goal”.

http://www.defencenet.gr/defence/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=9499&Itemid=40

Or to translate the above to more simple words:

– Vendil is going down the drain apparently (which means that the goverment DOES have veto over the sale).

– Confirms that Papanikolis is going to remain to the Germans (Farewall Papanikolis or should i say good riddance).

– They made a compromise as to let a foreign evaluating House to say whether the new owner is a good one or not, which i imagine is a relief for Thyssen.

– The shipyards in the meantime will continue to run, which is a relief for the workers.

Yes, the MoD is smart and obviously knows his legal stuff well enough as not to fall into the first Thyssen bluff.

The days of the old socialist goverment of 2002 where we would do colonialism-like contracts and receive everything like good boys seem to be over.

The MoD also said that he will make the arms procurements law to incorporate the latest EU directive on the matter, to improve transparency and reliability. Which given his background , is the best thing he can offer to the ministry.

In Greece, there are too many intermediaries, lobbying like mad inside the greek Pentagon and outside. From retired army officers to military magazines. If he manages to neutralize all that, it will be great.

Even for people not directly involved , just by reading military magazines for a few months, it becomes shockingly obvious that each one of them, is heavily praising certain companies and shamelessly trashing its competitors or the greek state itself , to the point that you feel that they insult your intelligence if they *think* that you are incapable of understanding that.

Anyway, let’s see for how long the new episode of the saga continues before the next “surprise move”…

P.S: I REALLY don’t understand why the Germans agree so promptly to keep the Papanikolis with this goverment, while they were attacking for years the previous goverment and arrived to the point to denounce the contracts. This alone tells that there is much more going on in the background than the simple story that we know. And it’s probably tied with the negotiations with the shipyards and/or the frigates. I can’t find another explanation. When the previous gov was saying “we don’t want the Papanikolis”, the Germans were going ballistics and wouldn’t talk. This goverment says the same, and they send Atzpodien and find agreement… Weird things… Same goes for the subs. When they denounced the contracts, the 3 U214s were “frozen” in their deliveries from Thyssen. Now a few days later they agree to start sea trials?

One surely positive thing out of this, is that the new MoD is professor of Constitutional Law, so he knows his legal stuff and announced modifications to the ways the arms procurements will be done, which include that all future arms contracts, will be in greek language, will be subordinated to greek laws and responsible for disputes will be greek courts.

Sounds like a smart man.

I agree the leaked MoU is pressure tactics, but pulling that kind of stunt while in 3-way negotiations with Gov/MoD & Elefsis is a joke. If they don’t like Tavoularis’ price offer, they don’t accept it, and the government is already interceding to make all parties happy. Thyssen *IS* seriously in trouble, financially: It’s no coincidence why they sign JV with UAE sheikhs NOW and not 5 years ago.

If Tavoularis doesn’t have the money to make Thyssen happy, and the price can’t be lowered any more, the government should either extend a loan to Elefsis with terms that ensure they get payed back, or buy back the shipyards either in full, or half with Tavoularis. … It seems strange if Greece buys them back completely for the EU fine to still be in place, though…

There is also IMHO a very simple reason of why the new goverment isn’t thrilled with the idea of Vendil getting Skaramanga.

If Vendil gets Skaramanga, how are you going to keep the shipyard open? You HAVE to give it the FREMMs to build! But Tavularis has MoU with DCNS. So how do you give the FREMMs to Vendil, while Tavularis has MoU with DCNS? And even if you do convince the French to scratch the MoU and cooperate with Skaramanga, then what of Elefsis shipyards?

While, with Tavularis getting everything or a single consorcium including Tavularis getting everything, you solve your problem at Skaramanga, but you solve also your problem of having to give work constantly to 2 different shipyards. Many say that in a time of global crisis where even big shipyards are in crisis , Greece can’t afford to have 2 competing shipyards for military ships and i agree.

So even if Tavularis had neutral relations with the goverment, i do see why the goverment doesn’t want Vendil to get the shipyards. It will be a headache to give job both to Vendil and to Tavularis to keep their respective shipyards open.