Greek / Turkish Aircraft Carriers!

Thank you Orko8 for the insight. However, just a clarrification… the TF-2000 Frigate project is alive and well. See:

http://www.dzkk.tsk.mil.tr/turkce/modernizasyon.asp
http://www.ssm.gov.tr/TR/Projeler/denizaraclari/prjgrpharpgemisi/Pages/tf2000__D.aspx

The SSM experienced some problems with the Frigate project due to the US refusal to transfer SM-2 missiles to Turkey. However, negotiations have commenced with certain European countries (viz Switzerland) for European alternatives. Hence, the TF-2000 project is on target.

I know TF-2000 is alive… well resurrected.. But it is not going to get a life until MilGem proves itself; read officials’ statements (MSB and SSM) Currently all energy and concentration of Turkish Navy and SSM is focused on MilGem.

The planned amphibious shipping you mention is all listed on the SSM website. I’m interested in the thinking behind the LPD. It seems unnecessary for short-range amphibious actions. Is Turkey thinking it might be useful in international peacekeeping operations & the like?

Correct. In addition, if you look at Turkey’s natural hinterland, it covers a large area in the whole Eastern Mediterranean, Black Sea, entrance to Red Sea and Caucasus – Caspian Sea. This dictates the capability of force projection to these spots at any given time. That’s why assets like A400M, KC-135R, LPD are of high priority in Turkish MoND’s “shopping list”

Thank you Orko8 for the insight. However, just a clarrification… the TF-2000 Frigate project is alive and well. See:

http://www.dzkk.tsk.mil.tr/turkce/modernizasyon.asp
http://www.ssm.gov.tr/TR/Projeler/denizaraclari/prjgrpharpgemisi/Pages/tf2000__D.aspx

The SSM experienced some problems with the Frigate project due to the US refusal to transfer SM-2 missiles to Turkey. However, negotiations have commenced with certain European countries (viz Switzerland) for European alternatives. Hence, the TF-2000 project is on target.

Thanks, Orko. The rationale behind it – the blocking of transits – is new to me, but otherwise, you’ve confirmed what I thought, that it was a “nice to have” idea which has never progressed.

The planned amphibious shipping you mention is all listed on the SSM website. I’m interested in the thinking behind the LPD. It seems unnecessary for short-range amphibious actions. Is Turkey thinking it might be useful in international peacekeeping operations & the like?

The idea of procuring an aircraft carrier was first brought into Turkish public opinion’s attention during Operation Deny Flight and ater Kosovo bombing missions when TuAF encountered some problems regarding usage of Hellenic Airspace while transiting to the Balkans. The idea was quickly analyzed and shelved for very obvious reasons. Turkish media during the days has shown photos of Nimitz class for -again- obvious reasons but the ships in focus were rather “Invincible-like”.

On the other hand, there is an ambitious modernization project well underway for Turkish amphibious brigade, involving production and procurement of an LPD (~17,000t class), 2 x LST’s, 8 x fast LCT’s, a number of AAV’s, general purpose and cargo helicopters for marines ets.

Procurement of a squadron (`16 – 20) F-35B STOVL variant was on the desk until lately. It is cancelled.

TF-2000 is a whole different story. It will depend on the success of MilGem corvette project (on both psychological and technological bases).

Turkish Newpaper who first mentioned the project in 1998: http://www.milliyet.com.tr/1998/04/13/haber/hab00.html

I also draw your attention to Turkey’s Tf-2000 Frigate/Light Destroyer project. Up till the signiture date, no one believed the existence of such project. In fact, many officers were also caught off-guard. It is no secret that Turkey likes to announce projects only after they designed it and are also certain that they can procure the weapons systems.

I also quote what our Chief of the General Staff has stated last year:

“Turkey has the ability to design and build aircraft carriers. In fact, the building of an aircraft carrier is both much cheaper and easier than the building of a Frigate or Destroyer. Turkey can do all three”: Said on 7/11/2007during a Speech at Graduation ceremony for Turkish Navy College graduates.

Neither of these supports your claim that Turkey is planning to build an aircraft carrier, let alone your assertion that it will be commissioned by 2013. One is a ten year old press article, & another is yet another claim by you for which you have not provided evidence, & which even if true is a vague statement about capabilities, with no suggestion of a current plan.

And what you say about TF-2000 is both inaccurate & irrelevant. The TF-2000 project has, unlike this supposed aircraft carrier, been the subject of many official statements & official actions for many years. The scope & timing has been very uncertain, but an RFI was issued in 1996 (i.e. the stage the LPD project was at last year), & an RFP in 1999. It started out as 12 ships, to be commissioned between 2003 & 2008. It’s still a project, not yet being built AFAIK, & now for only 4 ships – according to the SSM website you provided a link to, and that’s as official as it gets.

I see that under “Deniz Hava Projeleri” (Sea Air projects) the Turkish Navy website shows helicopters, not aircraft carriers.

Frankly, I don’t believe in this aircraft carrier. You’ve not provided any evidence whatsoever that it exists, except as a “wouldn’t it be nice to have?” idea. Unless you come up with some real evidence very soon, I will conclude that you can’t, because there isn’t any – and the reason for that is that there is no project.

[edit] I raised this issue on another forum, where some Turks participate who seem to be well-informed. Nobody is aware of any plan to buy or build an aircraft carrier.

When I read this post I almost wept I laughed so much!:D

The day that Greece and Turkey embarks an a joint millitary project will also be the day that hell freezes over.

On a serious note as has already been stated in the Med with proximity to land based fighter cover neither nation has much need for a carrier. I think there is a case for a LPH or LPD which I think both nations could find a use for.

On another note isn’t Pakistan interested in some of those Turkish corvette designs?

Pakistan has expressed interest in both the Turkish Corvette, MILGEM class and also the Turkish Air Defence Frigates, TF-2000 Class. However, Turkey is discussing how the systems can be “watered down” as Turkish officials are a bit uneasy about the idea of exporting certain High tech and classified components, which is the product of over 15 years research.

However, Turkey is currently exporting to several countries (including Pakistan) the MRTP 33 Fast Attack Missile craft. In fact, the US coast guard has also expressed interest in this platform.

Can you please provide details of these “pages and pages”? And what about an official source? So far, you have provided no credible evidence of the existence of a project.

Dokdo took 9 years from RFP (not yet issued by Turkey) to commissioning. 7 years from RFP to launch, 2 years from launch to commissioning. Engines were ordered 4.5 years before commissioning. I would expect a new ship based on Dokdo to be built faster, but not two years from order to commissioning.

Turkish Newpaper who first mentioned the project in 1998: http://www.milliyet.com.tr/1998/04/13/haber/hab00.html

I also draw your attention to Turkey’s Tf-2000 Frigate/Light Destroyer project. Up till the signiture date, no one believed the existence of such project. In fact, many officers were also caught off-guard. It is no secret that Turkey likes to announce projects only after they designed it and are also certain that they can procure the weapons systems.

I also quote what our Chief of the General Staff has stated last year:

“Turkey has the ability to design and build aircraft carriers. In fact, the building of an aircraft carrier is both much cheaper and easier than the building of a Frigate or Destroyer. Turkey can do all three”: Said on 7/11/2007during a Speech at Graduation ceremony for Turkish Navy College graduates.

There are pages and pages of articles in Turkish media about such light aircraft project. Also, regarding the LPD, Italy has stated 3 years from order to commissioning. Korea on the other hand has stated 2 years (I guess because the South Korean company has experience in building the Dokdo Class LPD already).

Can you please provide details of these “pages and pages”? And what about an official source? So far, you have provided no credible evidence of the existence of a project.

Dokdo took 9 years from RFP (not yet issued by Turkey) to commissioning. 7 years from RFP to launch, 2 years from launch to commissioning. Engines were ordered 4.5 years before commissioning. I would expect a new ship based on Dokdo to be built faster, but not two years from order to commissioning.

I think also Turkey and Greece can produce an aircraft carrier together.In the future Turkey will get F-35 aircrafts and they can get also F-35B naval version.Greece can also purchase Rafale’s naval version or whatever Greece authories decides.And also Turkey has the capasity of producing it’s own destroyers.Today in Turkey there is an project which is about to produce it’s own warship ”milgem” which will increase Turkey’s naval power and also it’s producing it’s own latest technologically coast guard ships.Milgem is projected to float in 2011.And also it has lots of projects some of these;own helicopter project and lots of domestic military equipments.The radar system of milgem will be produced by Tübitak and software of the ship will be awarded milsoft software.The biggest military equipment manufacturers in Turkey are;Aselsan,Roketsan,Tai,Milsoft,Havelsan,Mke and Tübitak.In the future F-35 aircraft will assemble in Turkey and some of the equipments will change with Turkey’s domestic equipments.These can be Helmet mounted night vision system,mission computer,Laser tergetting pod similar(LANTRIN) and more.I think both countries have the potential of producing an aircraft carrier.

When I read this post I almost wept I laughed so much!:D

The day that Greece and Turkey embarks an a joint millitary project will also be the day that hell freezes over.

On a serious note as has already been stated in the Med with proximity to land based fighter cover neither nation has much need for a carrier. I think there is a case for a LPH or LPD which I think both nations could find a use for.

On another note isn’t Pakistan interested in some of those Turkish corvette designs?

There is no mention on that site of an aircraft carrier. I ask you again, can you provide a source?

BTW, it also makes clear that the LPD has not been ordered. The project is currently at the stage of deciding which bidders should be sent RFPs (Requests for Proposals). In other words, designs have not yet been asked for, let alone a firm order placed. I therefore think it unlikely (though not impossible) that the LPD will be in service by 2013. It will probably take 4 to 5 years from order to commissioning.

There are pages and pages of articles in Turkish media about such light aircraft project. Also, regarding the LPD, Italy has stated 3 years from order to commissioning. Korea on the other hand has stated 2 years (I guess because the South Korean company has experience in building the Dokdo Class LPD already).

And the Turkish Navy is taking this into consideration..hence why the project is taking longer than expected. Navy officials state that the tonnage may be increased to cater for newer aircraft platforms. Nothing is fixed as of now…in fact at one stage there was talk about a radically new hull design for a next generation carrier. There were experiments also conducted on tri-hull semi-submerged wavepiercing hulls, hence we expect something original to come up.

Up till now, the focus was on building indegenous Attack helicopters and large naval platforms as there is need for alot of escort platforms. With this accomplished it is now that they are focussing on LPD’s and Aircraft Carriers.

Well a majority of the naval platforms mentioned above are operational. The only new additions will be the MILGEM corvettes, TF-2000 Frigates, AIP Submarines, LPD and the light carrier. All the designs etc for the above have been finalised (except for the light carrier). Firms orders have also been made (again except for the light carrier). The Turkish Undersecretariat for Defence is charged with duty of running the procurement process. For further information regarding the progress of these projects and for detailed information please see the following Turkish Government website which is in English: http://www.ssm.gov.tr/EN/Pages/default.aspx

There is no mention on that site of an aircraft carrier. I ask you again, can you provide a source?

BTW, it also makes clear that the LPD has not been ordered. The project is currently at the stage of deciding which bidders should be sent RFPs (Requests for Proposals). In other words, designs have not yet been asked for, let alone a firm order placed. I therefore think it unlikely (though not impossible) that the LPD will be in service by 2013. It will probably take 4 to 5 years from order to commissioning.

Sens I think you should think before writing.You can go for bringing peace to the Africa.

I wouldn’t dismiss Sens post too quickly…it is no secret that Turkey has plans in Sudan,Somalia and Tanzania. In fact, Turkey has US backing in this regard. You are also forgeting that some of the aforementioned countries were ex- Imperial Ottoman Provinces. Hence, Turkey has cultural links with some of these nations.

To see how much influence Turkey has on some African countries just read the following:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2006/10/20061002-5.html
http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/01/08/africa/turkey.php
http://www.voanews.com/english/2008-01-21-voa15.cfm

But as I said, the proposed carrier is only really suitable for Harrier, which is no longer in production. The size given is 10000 tons less than the smallest ship designed for F-35B.

And the Turkish Navy is taking this into consideration..hence why the project is taking longer than expected. Navy officials state that the tonnage may be increased to cater for newer aircraft platforms. Nothing is fixed as of now…in fact at one stage there was talk about a radically new hull design for a next generation carrier. There were experiments also conducted on tri-hull semi-submerged wavepiercing hulls, hence we expect something original to come up.

Up till now, the focus was on building indegenous Attack helicopters and large naval platforms as there is need for alot of escort platforms. With this accomplished it is now that they are focussing on LPD’s and Aircraft Carriers.

Would you care to provide a source for this, & an explanation of the building programme? It’s now 2008: this fleet expansion looks very ambitious, considering that some elements of it haven’t been designed yet.

Well a majority of the naval platforms mentioned above are operational. The only new additions will be the MILGEM corvettes, TF-2000 Frigates, AIP Submarines, LPD and the light carrier. All the designs etc for the above have been finalised (except for the light carrier). Firms orders have also been made (again except for the light carrier). The Turkish Undersecretariat for Defence is charged with duty of running the procurement process. For further information regarding the progress of these projects and for detailed information please see the following Turkish Government website which is in English: http://www.ssm.gov.tr/EN/Pages/default.aspx

Signing ceremony for the acquisition of 12 MILGEM Corvettes

Signing ceremony for the acquisition of Patrol Boats

Sens I think you should think before writing.You can go for bringing peace to the Africa.

…

Furthermore, you ask how Turkey will equip its aircraft carrier. Well, it is no secret that Turkey is a partner in the JSF consortium. Albeit, it has put firm orders for 120 F-35 CTOL versions, the Turkish Ministry of Defence has also expressed interest in VTOL versions.

But as I said, the proposed carrier is only really suitable for Harrier, which is no longer in production. The size given is 10000 tons less than the smallest ship designed for F-35B.

…
The Turkish Navy Inventory in 2013 will be as follows:

27 Frigates (6 can be classed as Light Destroyer)
20 Submarines
18 Corvettes
47 Fast Attack Missile Ships (Classed as Corvettes by lürssen)
85, 33m Composite Hull Fast Patrol Attack Craft built by Yonca-Onuk
22 Coast-Guard Ships- Coastal Patrol
4 Search and Rescue Ships
1 (+1) – LPD (With 18 T-129 Attack Helis)
1 Light Aircraft Carrier (15,000 to 18,000 Tons)

Would you care to provide a source for this, & an explanation of the building programme? It’s now 2008: this fleet expansion looks very ambitious, considering that some elements of it haven’t been designed yet.

I think also Turkey and Greece can produce an aircraft carrier together.In the future Turkey will get F-35 aircrafts and they can get also F-35B naval version.Greece can also purchase Rafale’s naval version or whatever Greece authories decides.And also Turkey has the capasity of producing it’s own destroyers.Today in Turkey there is an project which is about to produce it’s own warship ”milgem” which will increase Turkey’s naval power and also it’s producing it’s own latest technologically coast guard ships.Milgem is projected to float in 2011.And also it has lots of projects some of these;own helicopter project and lots of domestic military equipments.The radar system of milgem will be produced by Tübitak and software of the ship will be awarded milsoft software.The biggest military equipment manufacturers in Turkey are;Aselsan,Roketsan,Tai,Milsoft,Havelsan,Mke and Tübitak.In the future F-35 aircraft will assemble in Turkey and some of the equipments will change with Turkey’s domestic equipments.These can be Helmet mounted night vision system,mission computer,Laser tergetting pod similar(LANTRIN) and more.I think both countries have the potential of producing an aircraft carrier.

To send it to a peace-keeping mission in Africa f.e.

I think also Turkey and Greece can produce an aircraft carrier together.In the future Turkey will get F-35 aircrafts and they can get also F-35B naval version.Greece can also purchase Rafale’s naval version or whatever Greece authories decides.And also Turkey has the capasity of producing it’s own destroyers.Today in Turkey there is an project which is about to produce it’s own warship ”milgem” which will increase Turkey’s naval power and also it’s producing it’s own latest technologically coast guard ships.Milgem is projected to float in 2011.And also it has lots of projects some of these;own helicopter project and lots of domestic military equipments.The radar system of milgem will be produced by Tübitak and software of the ship will be awarded milsoft software.The biggest military equipment manufacturers in Turkey are;Aselsan,Roketsan,Tai,Milsoft,Havelsan,Mke and Tübitak.In the future F-35 aircraft will assemble in Turkey and some of the equipments will change with Turkey’s domestic equipments.These can be Helmet mounted night vision system,mission computer,Laser tergetting pod similar(LANTRIN) and more.I think both countries have the potential of producing an aircraft carrier.

In addition to this, Turkey has been “stocking” up on Frigates, Corvettes and Missiles Ships so that it has enough Sea platforms for escort missions as well. Below is a non-exhaustive summary of some new acquisitions/modernization projects of the Turkish Navy.

Turkey has approved the design and construction of 6 (+2 options) indigenous Stealth TF-2000 class Frigates. It was initially thought that such project would not go ahead, because Turkey was having trouble with the procurement of high-tech weapons systems, however Navy officials state this problem has been overcome by utilizing “European alternatives”. It is said that the TF-2000 could be classed as a light Destroyer. The Frigates will use indigenously developed (ASELSAN) 3D Radar.

Turkey has also approved the co-production of 6 AIP Air-independent propulsion Submarines with a German Yard.

Turkey has also approved the construction of the remaining 11 Stealth MILGEM Corvettes. Navy Officials state that because there is no problems with the construction of the First ship, TCG Heybeliada, there is no reason why the other 11 should wait for the launch of the TCG Heybeliada.

On the 23rd of August 2007, Turkey has also signed for the production of 16 Stealth Coastal Patrol Ships. DEARSAN Gemi İnşaat Sanayii A.Ş. has commenced construction of these ships at its Istanbul Yard. Albeit, classed as a Coastal Patrol Boat by Turkey, these ships can be considered as light corvettes.

In June 2007 Turkey started taking delivery of its 6 new Mine Hunting Vessels. The project was a joint-venture between Turkish Navy, Abeking&Rasmussen and Fr.Lürssen Werft of Germany.

US Congress has also approved the donation of 2 more Oliver Hazard Perry Guided Missile Frigates to Turkey on the 23rd of October 2007. These 2 vessels will immediately undergo GENESIS modernization in Istanbul, just like the other Oliver Hazard Perry in the Turkish Navy. Below are pictures of the Oliver Hazard Perry after modernization. See http://www.reuters.com/article/politicsNews/idUSN2330376020071023?pageNumber=1

Oliver Hazard Perry Frigates after Modernisation in Istanbul.

Turkey has also commenced the construction of 4 Search and Rescue Ships.

Turkey has also ordered more Kaan 33 Fast Patrol Attack Craft from Yonca-Onuk. Multi weapon mounts included in this platform are.
– Stabilized naval turret with up to 30 mm. gun
(+ short range SSM).
– Medium range SSM (Total weights up to 5 tons).
– Short range SAM.
– 2 x 12.7 mm. heavy MG.
Multi sensor surveillance unit
(EOD with capabilty of controlling the main gun).
Search and rescue equipment
Decoys
SOF (Special Operation Forces) support/SDV (Seal Delivery Vehicle)
Pollution control
All Kaan 33 MRTP’s will also be retrofitted with data links for improved efficiency.

Weapons Mini-control system for the MRTP 33.

Asked about whether Turkey could afford such defence acquisitions by a “Milliyet” journalist, the Turkish Finance Minster stated that Turkey’s GDP will exceed $1.1 trillion in 6 years time at the current economic growth rates. He further added that Turkey was exceeding economic growth forecasts and hence money was not an issue in defence procurement anymore. “The old days are over” he remarked. Turkey he said “wants to be an exporter of Military technology, not solely a consumer”.

Furthermore, the Turkish Armed Forces including the Navy is discussing the possibility of coating all Defence vehicles with the new version radar absorption technology developed by Ankara’s Middle East Technical University. It is said that this revolutionary technology will further significantly enhance the stealth abilities of the MILGEM corvettes and Stealth Tf-2000 Frigates currently being built in Istanbul. Furthermore, it is said because the coating is only 2mm thick it is very light and hence useable on most platforms.

The Turkish Navy Inventory in 2013 will be as follows:

27 Frigates (6 can be classed as Light Destroyer)
20 Submarines
18 Corvettes
47 Fast Attack Missile Ships (Classed as Corvettes by lürssen)
85, 33m Composite Hull Fast Patrol Attack Craft built by Yonca-Onuk
22 Coast-Guard Ships- Coastal Patrol
4 Search and Rescue Ships
1 (+1) – LPD (With 18 T-129 Attack Helis)
1 Light Aircraft Carrier (15,000 to 18,000 Tons)

Classes break-up

Subs
4 Gür Class Type 209T2/1400 Submarines (Being Modernized)
4 Preveze Class Type 209T1/1400 Submarines (Being Modernized)
6 Atılay Class Type 209/1200 Submarines (Being Modernized)
6 AIP Air-independent propulsion Submarines- Joint Venture with Germany

Frigates
2 SalihReis Class (MEKO® 200 TN II-B) Frigates
2 Barbaros Class (MEKO® 200 TN II-A) Frigates
4 Yavuz Class (MEKO® 200 TN I) Frigates
10 G Class (Oliver Hazard Perry class) Frigates (All very extensively modernized under Genesis Project with Digital control systems etc)
6 TF-2000 Class Frigates (Considered as Light Destroyer)
3 TF-2000 Class Frigates (Lighter version to replace the 3 old Knox class Frigates)

Corvettes
12 Milgem Class Corvettes (Option for another 6)
6 B Class (D’Estienne d’Orves class A-69 type Aviso) Corvettes

Fast Attack Missile Ships
6 Kılıç II Class (It is defined as a corvette by Lürssen Werft, the German designer of the vessel)
3 Kılıç I Class
2 Yıldız Class
4 Rüzgar Class
4 Doğan Class
8 Kartal Class
16 New ASW OPV Class (under construction)
4 Kılıç III Class

The Kılıç Class

Fast Patrol Attack Craft
85 Kaan Class Fast Patrol Attack Craft

N.B. The funds for the aforementioned platforms have already been transfered to the Turkish Ministry of Defence by the Turkish Ministry of Finance. All but the LPD and Light Carrier projects have also already commenced and are in the construction phase.

That does not say that a carrier had been authorised. It says – with no evidence – that studies were being carried out. The hypothetical carrier being studied was supposedly a light STOVL carrier – but the size range discussed would suit only Harriers, and there are no more Harriers. Out of production, & not available secondhand. So what aircraft would this carrier embark?

BTW, I can’t see it “all over the internet”. I just see the one story.

I fear you have confused this old & clearly mistaken story with the real planned purchase by Turkey of an LHD or LPD, an amphibious helicopter-carrying ship, which you refer to.

What possible use would Turkey have for an aircraft carrier? It would be of no value in a war with any of its neighbours.

Turkey never studies equipment for no reason. Nor does it conduct scientific research at considerable cost for no reason.

Also, No, I have not “confused” or “mistaken” the LPD for a Light Carrier. The LPD acquisition was only determined in 2005. Whereas, the Turkish Navy has been studying Light Aircraft Carriers for over 10 years. There are also several universities and Defence institutions runing studies on carrier technologies such as catapults in Turkey.

Turkey, as a Former Empire, has interests in Asia, Europe and the Middle East. In order to project further power and act as a major deterent Turkey will acquire a light aircraft carrier. Greece is the least of Turkeys worries.

Furthermore, you ask how Turkey will equip its aircraft carrier. Well, it is no secret that Turkey is a partner in the JSF consortium. Albeit, it has put firm orders for 120 F-35 CTOL versions, the Turkish Ministry of Defence has also expressed interest in VTOL versions.

can someone put this necroed thread to bed