Guantanamo Bay

“I have no solution to this issue but why limit it to just the prisioners held by the US in Cuba? Lets include all such types held regardless of where they are held or by whom and not single out the US which is the only reason anyone is interested in this thread in first place.

If we are going to stand for truth and justice and everything that goes with it, then lets get on with it. Everyone here should climb down from their political/moral soapbox and take their halos off.”

But that is just the point. The US seems to be standing alone with its halo shining defending Democracy and everything that is right and good and decent. It seems that is just a front, an excuse. A few terrorists plotted together and blew up three planes and destroyed one major building and damaged another. For that we have a world wide witch hunt to find those responsible.

Call it justice or call it revenge… whatever.

How is that any different from a communist country oppressing all the pro democracy elements in their countries. Civil wars result in more than a few planes and buildings going down. If the US can be selective about who gets humaine treatment and access to legal council why can’t Cuba, or North Korea, or China, or anyone else? At least they don’t have the burden of hipocracy. They are not claiming to defend the rights of all people. When was the last time China imposed an embargo on a country for that countries human rights record? Or how about Cuba, or Russia?

So what! you say? Why can’t the US do what these countries do, they have been holding people in custody without charge for years…

The simple reason is that although it doesn’t effect your superpower status it takes all the shine off your halo, and your wings are starting to look fake and pasted on.

The US is a contradiction.

It wants to save the world, but it doesn’t want the burden of being the worlds policeman.
It wants to be a hero, but in the end it only does what it does to suit itself.

On a similar note I see Jedd Clampet has died. It was one of my favourite American shows of the period as it was not ashamed to poke fun at US culture. I remember one episode where the rich banker was trying to explain how a certain family was held with more respect because it came over in one of the very early boats from Europe. Jedd took this idea to its obvious and logical conclusion that if they are well respected because of the amount of time they had been there then the most respectible people in America must be the Indians. The Rich person didn’t get it and the obvious joke was how dumb simple mountain folk are. Perhaps an underlying joke about how silly the rich folk are was unintentional and if it was then that is sad.

One of the greatest problems most Americans seem to have here is the idea that the US is not perfect. It has made many mistakes as has every country. Pointing out those mistakes does not make someone anti american. Ignoring or glossing over those mistakes by saying everyone else does it too should be unamerican… if you want american to mean good and right and fair. Obviously some think it is already perfect. I guess the jails must be empty and everyone is happy in a nice house in a nice neighbourhood, in a nice city, in a nice state.

Plawolf: I don’t totally agree that what might be called terrorists are normal and nice and don’t like killing. I do agree that they think they are doing the right thing and the difference between a terrorist and freedom fighter has become so blurred it no longer makes sense to distinguish them. (The same “freedom fighters” the US supported in Afghanistan gave the afghan people less freedom than the evil commie Soviets they were fighting. You’d have thought that simple fact would have stopped US funding of them during the ’94-2001 odd period when they had power and removed rights and didn’t have a single public vote… but then Democracy has always been about Rhetoric and keeping serious rivals like Russia in its place.)

Not really concerned. We will play hardball on the issue of direct attack on U.S. soil period. You are entitled to your opinions, but that is all they are. You have no say in how we deal with a direct threat to our nation. Don’t like it? Too bad.

Flood

I can hardly wait for the movie to come out.:D

Sauron

Sorry people, would have a whole lot more respect for americans if they didn’t try to brainwash everyone into believing that whatever they do is right and that you are wrong if you don’t tow their line.

A school teacher that I am regularly in touch with (used to go to school with her) mentioned that an exchange teacher from across the Atlantic, at her school, has been ‘informally’ disciplined because she spent a whole series of maths lessons apparently justifying that Bush sent troops into Iraq because Saddam was behind the World Trade Centre fly in. A child complained (and this never normally happens, apparently!) that they weren’t studying maths! When the teacher was asked what this political discussion had to do with helping children prepare for their exams she apparently launched into a tirade of abuse against the rest of the world for not backing the american people when they had right on their side! I am led to believe that the last straw was when she called the deputy head a communist because he tried to explain that she should be teaching maths and not politics – very funny because he is apparently a big wig in the local conservative party… (for the good ole boys out there – they are further to the right than Tony ‘Brown Nosed’ Blair – who claims to be a socialist (bit like a communist, but not quite!))
My friend tells me that – from an educational aspect – her observations are that children in america seem to be taught current affairs purely on what ever is flavour of the month, i.e. when the World Trade Centre was attacked then it was Iran that was being floated as the monster over the horizon (even when Afghanistan was being returned to the stone age, and she should know – she was on exchange out there and told to push the presidents line!), then Afghanistan was officially public enemy #1, then Iraq, now it’s Iran again trampling on democracy – but with North Korea and their nukes making a go for next week! Mustn’t forget Libya, and Pakistan was another that was, until recently, one of the naughty boys! Of course Turkey will also be out of favour at the moment (fancy worrying about your own population and not allowing a war to be launched from your southern border!) – and as for France!!! It must be hell to be a teacher out there, coming back from a week off not knowing who you are supposed to be bad mouthing!
Anyway, as for those locked away in Guantanamo I agree with the stand up comedian (whose name, much to my shame, currently eludes me) who said that by the criteria laid down by Bush/etc for being a terrorist that there would soon be dawn raids on members of the Cub/Scout movement! ‘Let’s see, taking an oath, being prepared, wearing a military-style uniform… Whut’s a woggle anyhow, huh, an’ how many people kin it kill?’

Flood.

What I wonder is how many of these prisoners have actually been to the US before to train in CIA funded training camps?
The US wasn’t very interested in the effect that terrrorism was having in Europe until the events of 9/11. The simple fact is that Reagan and his advisors played a dangerous game in helping supply arms to Afghanistan and the net result is well trained terrorists courtesy of the US.
I don’t have a problem with the right of the U.S to defend itself but I think in this case they have made a serious error of judgement. Simply put if the captives had been kept in Afghanistan they (the US)wouldn’t have seemed so keen to sidestep the conventions of fair treatment.

OK, I can accept that.

If I may be so bold, a lot of the anti-Americanism we see these days arises because the typical US point of view is, instinctively, very different from everyone else’s. But the Americans never try to explain their point of view; just get angry with everyone for not sharing it. A bit more understanding goes a long way.

sauron:

i cant speak for everyone, but if i really hate the US (as u implies) then i would be supporting what they are doing in guantanamo.

like it or not, ‘terrists’ are not born terrists, nor are they all cold blooded murderers (as most governments would like u believe). u’d be suprised at how many ‘terrorists’ started off as well educated, caring, successful individuals.

(i use ‘terrirost’ because the actual term has been shamelessly exploited and broadened by polititions the world over to now, when u can describe almost anyone as a ‘terrirost’. its the ‘communist=evil’ thing all over again.)

the vat mojority of ‘terrirosts’ dont kill for the fun of it, they all have a goal, that they somehow believe would be achieved by killing ppl. more often then not, terrirost attacks are more out of deperation then choice. and most of the time, the attacks are not designed to kill just for the sake of killing, but rather to get attention, in the hope that somehow, by killing ppl, governments would take them more seriously. and unfortunatly, it works.

u say that the world doesnt know how to effectively deal with terrirots? well, i can tell u flat out that u r wrong. the british have very successfully solved the N.irland issue without giving in to the terrirosts’ demands and without massive loss in life.

i think ever nation on earth that have a terrirost problem should look at britain’s example.

1) listen to the terrirosts’ demands. these are already desperate ppl, dont make them more desperate (and more likely to commit attacks) by dismissing them as ‘crazy humicidal murdereers who cant be understood by the sain person’. if u dont listen to them, then they’re going to think they need to kill more ppl to force u to listen.

2) terriost groups need to recrut need members, if u cut off the supply of new members, then the terrirost org will wither and eventually die.

like, govs, terrirosts also use propaganda in their recrutment, to make their cause seem more marol and ‘holly’ then it actually is, and to make the government seem more ‘evil’ and oppresive then it actually is.

no government is perfect, and often there are real life examples of bad behavior by governments that help to support the terriorst propaganda. under these circumstances, no amount of gov statements (even if they are perfectly true) will convice the terrirost recruts that they might be doing the wrong thing.

the only effective way to cut off the supply of new, willing recruts is to go in and show the possible candidates first hand that what they were told is wrong. locking ppl in cages without trial, dennying them of the very basic rights that even terrirosts would expect to recieve, and giving the impression that they trials are nothing more then a pulic show is not the best way of going abt it.

3) make concessions. note, these concessions are only made as a result of dialogue and reasoning, not by attacks. by doing this, u show the desperat ppl that they ‘have a chance’ to achieve their goal, and so make them less desperate and angry (reducing the chances of attacks).

also, most ‘terriosts’ dont want to launch an attack if they can avoid it. for some its cos they still have a consence left, but for most, its just natral survival instincts. if they launch an attack, then there is a good chance they wont be coming back, and as willing as they are to die, im sure most would like to avoid it if they can.

4) most importanly, realise that the true enemy is not the terrirosts, but the thing that make them so desperate that they were willing to kill to change it. (note that the driving force for the individual terrirost is often different from the driving force of the terrirost group, if the group’s demands are too far fetched (ie, all jews die), then the gov should concentrat on the problems of the individuals (being treated like sub-human or animals), which are often far less costly to address (a little bit of respect and understanding would go a long way).

unfortunatly, the steps given above arent really crowed pleasers or vote winners, so would require alot of political muscle and will and pull off. so leaders that are only elected cos of their gunho attitude cant really pull sth like this off (even though they most likely know its in the best interest of the nation and ppl) if they want to remain in power. 🙁

Sauron-

Nicely put.

Mongu

I have no solution to this issue but why limit it to just the prisioners held by the US in Cuba? Lets include all such types held regardless of where they are held or by whom and not single out the US which is the only reason anyone is interested in this thread in first place.

If we are going to stand for truth and justice and everything that goes with it, then lets get on with it. Everyone here should climb down from their political/moral soapbox and take their halos off.

There are terror groups all over the world who for one reason or another, murder innocent men women and children without a moments hesitation to advance some cause and the world hasn’t figured out how to deal with them because of the political, social, racial and moral overtones.

The prisioners in Cuba are there because the US believes they are criminals whatever they may say offically about POW’s and the rest of it and they are going to handle it in their own way until they are convinced they (the US) will get justice through some other means.

Regards

Sauron

Re: PLAwolf

Originally posted by US Agent
That’s odd, I was thinking the same type of thing about you…since you seem to be doing an excellent job of reinforcing the traditional image of a brainwashed, CCP-card carrying member of the PLA.

:rolleyes:

Moron

i think ur brain is more ‘clean’ then mine

cos its been washed much more thouroghly.

do u have any idea what things are like in china? have u even met a chinese person from the PRC? yet u seem that know better then me what things are like there-someone who grown up and lived there for half my life.

u reject my arguments not based on metret, but simply cos u dont like what i say.

ur vain attempt at mocery proves my point very well as it shows u are still desperately hanging on to cold war-era sterotypes and cliches. and if u havent figuerd it out yet, both sides were fully devoted at ‘brainwashing’ during the cold war.

and BTW, ur little mental picture of me couldnt be more wrong. i am writing to u from the UK, and i have been living here for quite some time now. guess the brits brainwashed me.

“Garry-why is it our fault if another country doesn’t have the same set of “rules” as we do? “

It is not. I didn’t realise that holding people without trial, without legal advice, in cages was in your rule book. It certainly isn’t for the American that was discovered among those that were taken.
The problem i have is not your rules but the selective application of your rules. If they were all American they would never have gone anywhere near Guantanamo, and they would all have access to legal council and would have been told what they were being held for.

“What exctly do you think should be done with the prisioners in Guantanamo?”

I think they should be treated the same way the american that was captured was treated. The double standard is a poor reflection on America.

Sauron,

No – I’m trying to be reasonable. Of course national security is a valid reason to be discreet. But there has to be some kind of safeguard, so that the gov’t can’t just wave the national security card whenever it feels like it. I do not know what these safeguards are. Would you care to explain?

And, as Garry pointed out, this can be done via a closed session of a normal court. Why do the Army have to be involved? Why the oppresive secrecy?

US Agent-I vote for your solution 😀

Garry-why is it our fault if another country doesn’t have the same set of “rules” as we do? Do you want us to force our value system on everyone? That would certainly not be right. What exctly do you think should be done with the prisioners in Guantanamo?

mongu-so you believe that any case whatsoever involving national security should be thrown out or tried in an open court, because the defense might be using it as an excuse?

“USA are the cop of the world and stay above the the international laws.”

Is anyone else stepping up? Did Liberia ask for France’s help? Didn’t Europe say”we’re not willing to take over responsibility for the Balkans” just recently? I’m all for less US involvement around the globe. But someone else needs to take the initiative and get the job done in our place. Hell, even the Koreans are bitching about our plan to pull out of Panmunjom and, oh dear, let them be in charge of more of their own security.

PLAwolf

That’s odd, I was thinking the same type of thing about you…since you seem to be doing an excellent job of reinforcing the traditional image of a brainwashed, CCP-card carrying member of the PLA.

:rolleyes:

Us agent

be honest now, r u an AQ oprative? cos u r really doing a fantastic job at discrediting the US on this board.

as much as i dislike bush and co, i still believe that the vast majority of americans are decent, moral and reasonable individuals. i hope im not wrong.

solution

*Send all Taliban prisoners to Russia so they can face a war crimes tribunal for their part in the Afghan-USSR conflict during the ’80s.

*The Al Queda scum stay put until America decides how best to execute them.

(US Justice) (Those who F**K with the US)

Vortex

Anything to divert attention from the real serious issues and events that some folks would like to just go away.

Regards

Sauron

…

my my…people sure have some serious “issues” and “complexes” :rolleyes:

Hey, at least Bush is not nuking small islands also known as colonies 😀 😉