Guardian bomber article and strafing question

With a 1,000 B-17s, each with 10, 50 cal machine guns potentially firing, bullets fired must eventually reach the ground.

That’s a very interesting proposition! I’d always assumed that after a few thousand metres any bullet fired from a B-17 (say) would be relatively harmless but it seems that the terminal velocity of a 50 calibre bullet is about 135 metres-per-second (450 feet-per-second); that may not sound fast compared to the muzzle velocity of 2900 feet-per-second but it is still about 300 miles-per-hour!

A 50 calibre round, even if it was fired upwards from a B-17 flying at 24,000 feet, would still be lethal when it reached the ground!

With a 1,000 B-17s, each with 10, 50 cal machine guns potentially firing, bullets fired must eventually reach the ground.

Even in the Midlands of England one of my Primary school teachers had a 50 cal bullet go through his car! That was due to an accidental firing when loading the guns on the ground prior to taxiing out for their mission.

What a pity it is that Mr Swift seems to hold his Grandfather, and the other brave men who flew as part of Bomber Command, with such utter disdain.

I flicked through this book a few weeks ago whilst browsing in WH Smith. I am very glad I stuck with my decision to not buy it.

Regards,
Dean

Mosquitos attacking Gestapo Headquarters in both France and Denmark I believe?

All this anecdotal ‘evidence’ of a woman shot while ironing is merely further evidence of Daniel Swift’s desire (or maybe need?) to portray both his Grandfather and the other men of Bomber Command as villains. He decides, arbitrarily, that his Grandfather must have felt guilty regarding his participation in the bombing of Germany. Guilt or not, he died as a second tour veteran and holder of a DFC.

This is Swift on page xxvii of the prologue…..

We went to Holland and we didn’t find him, exactly. But we were cheating a little as we already knew where he was buried. I’m not sure that we wanted to find him, in the end; I think we probably wanted to invent him for ourselves. I think I wanted to tell a story, and he was available.

I think that tells me as much as I need to know about Daniel Swift the author and a little more than I needed to know about Daniel Swift the man.

Regards,

kev35

I don’t think anybody is suggesting that a B-17 or Lancaster would be likely to descend to roof-top height and strafe ground targets (although it did happen); even if the witnesses are correct about the circumstances of what they witnessed, and we only have the fewest details.

‘During a daylight raid’ could mean many things since we don’t know when or where this incident occurred; later in the war I believe it was common for fighters to carry bombs and conduct strafing at low level; wouldn’t this constitute a ‘raid’ to a German schoolgirl?

Also weren’t long-range US bomber raids escorted by a relay of fighter escorts so that, once relieved, fighters could descend to roof-top height and shoot-up targets-of-opportunity on the return flight?

I think that is highly unlikely that any bomber or escort fighter would be low enough, or even drop low enough, to attack buildings. On a USAAF bomber raid the fighters were positioned to the side and above the bomber groups at many thousands of feet while the RAF raid heights were at a similar height. Even without a bomb load aboard, unless you are flying YB-40, the B-17’s, B-24’s and Lancasters would be more interested in the job in hand and then making it home without playing silly b*gg*rs at low level. Given the depth and abilities of the German defence forces it would be a quick way of committing suicide.

Cheers
Mad Jock

Why were we sitting calmly having our breakfast on a Sunday morning when some evil Squarehead shot us up ???

Why would someone be ironing in the middle of an air raid?

Below a UK or US heavy raid?
Unlikely I’d think.

Dodging bombs doesn’t sound like fun.

Well, maybe not directly below the bombers but at low-level post-bombing (on return flight) would be quite safe on that score.

I understood it was policy later in the war for fighters escorting US daylight raids to use their ammunition against ‘targets-of-opportunity’ when no enemy fighter threat existed; don’t bring your ammunition home with you.

When I re-read the article there was no indication where or when the incident that the German ladies remembered occurred. It didn’t necessarily have to be a large built-up area or anywhere near the target; any truck or train was fair-game even if it happened to be sitting in a small hamlet or at a village station.

I should stress that I do not think that the woman ironing was deliberately targeted nor do I make any criticism of the practice of strafing targets-of-opportunity. Also the only reason that I say it was possibly a US fighter is because of the greater number of US daylight raids (and US fighters); it could just as easily have been an RAF fighter.

As JDK says, ‘civilian logic’ states that any civilian killed must have been killed by the enemy…

…and must have been deliberately targeted. :rolleyes:

Just to give the pot a stir, this forthcoming film looks to be about to muddy the waters even more when it comes to strafing incidents during the Second World War:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NArWKpSp0MU
The film may eventually tell a good story, but I’m firmly in the sceptics camp when it comes to historical accuracy. I can detect, sadly, another urban myth in the making: perhaps the Messerschmitt was trying blow the Stork Hotel and its legless guest to smithereens as part of a massive cover-up?:diablo:

James, I got your meaning, I was agreeing with you.
I would not expect fighters below bombers…which by the comments seemed to be on a low level mission themselves.
I agree with Kev’s comments, it sounds like another author trying to judge the past by modern standards.

Below a UK or US heavy raid?
Unlikely I’d think.

Dodging bombs doesn’t sound like fun.

Absolutely. Maybe I wasn’t clear enough – it didn’t happen (not at the same time) but there’s numerous anecdotal accounts, by those on the receiving end. saying it did – IMHO, civilian concatenation of different, more complex events simplified to a socially comprehensive story.

Yes, Kev, that’s my impression (with less knowledge) too.

Regards,

The book itself is a very mixed up affair which, as far as I can see, does not meet the stated aims of the author. The abiding thing which I took from the book is that it appears to be a vessel through which he can exercise his moral and intellectual superiority over the reader and, more tellingly, over his own Grandfather.

After finishing the book I was very disappointed. Not so much in the fact that it isn’t the exploration of his Grandfather that it sets out to be, nor with the fact that his quest to examine the poetry of airmen is at best disjointed and in parts completely inane, it is the simple fact that for him, the airmen of Bomber Command are not people he wishes to know. One can only assume that includes his own Grandfather.

Regards,

kev35

Possibly one of the escorting fighters from an American daylight raid?

There’s no arguments about strafing taking place.

The problem is civilian accounts of strafing taking place below / during heavy bomber raids.

Below a UK or US heavy raid?
Unlikely I’d think.

Dodging bombs doesn’t sound like fun.

There’s no arguments about strafing taking place.

The problem is civilian accounts of strafing taking place below / during heavy bomber raids. Logical / possible to civilians seeing things (‘bullets’ – more likely shrapnel) going ‘ping’ around them, highly unlikely and unwise for an escorting fighter or for a heavy bomber to be low enough to do.

Regards

IIRC the 2nd TAF had orders to shoot “anything” that moved on Fortress Europe prior to Dday.Saying that machine guns I wouldnt call precision weapons of war and undoubtedly stray rounds would have gone everywhere on low level attacks.

Nothing here in the replies that does anything but confirm my own thoughts, escorting fighters that deep in enemy territory would have far greater concern and higher priority objectives than strafing a built up area during or immediately after a bombing raid. Protecting the bombers then on the way home targets of opportunity that would (I’d have thought) be closer to home such as in France or the Low Lands and targets such as airfields, trains etc.

As for the viewing of history from the present, the treatment and reaction to the Harris statue from some quarters sadly says it all.

It is certainly a common perception that bomber crews used their machine guns on the civilian population. I can remember walking past one of the stone buildings in the centre of Manchester when I was a child and my Mum pointed out holes in the stones which she said were caused by German bullets. Fast forward many tens of years later and I was reading a book which included a chapter on how stone blocks for building were dressed. Amongst those methods was a technique for gouging deep holes about two inches diameter in a rough and ready pattern. Precisely the feature Mum was saying was caused by machine gun bullets on the building in Manchester.

I have no doubt that there were incidents, on both sides, where over enthusiastic (for want of a better word) or over wrought gunners did fire on civilians, but I would have thought that most were too concerned about staying alive to make a practice of it.

As for the moral standards of the day vs the moral standards of our day. I think they are much the same amongst the population; the only differerence being that now there is a body of law to enforce, given the political will, those moral standards. Unfortunately, human beings being what we are, if a person has a gun or any other means of enforcing power, they are likely to use it.

Regards

Certainly there were many instances of the Luftwaffe shooting at anything that moved and haystacks etc. But many incidents I suspect were the result of aircraft firing at other aircraft and the rounds falling short.
We were having breakfast one Sunday morning when 3 cannon shells hit the bungalow, two of them came within a few feet of the window we were sitting by. We thought we had been strafed, but I remember only hearing the explosions followed by two? aircraft going over the house and further bursts of firing.
As you say times were very different and cannot be judged by todays strange moral standards. As I have said before “The only good German is a dead one”, How non PC is that??

Ground strafing

I suspect it might have been a little bit less unusual than we (looking back from a “modern” pc perspective and being from the side of ‘the good guys’) might think or like to believe.

I have been researching the Lubeck raid of 1942 and have read the ORB entries of all the 250+ a/c that operated that night. There are certainly a couple of cases recorded there, immediately post-op, where the crews said that on their way home they sprayed a few houses and buildings with gunfire. One recorded as having set a haystack on fire. Germany and, by extension, anything in it was, in general terms, “the enemy”.

Clearly not targeted at any particular individuals so the unfortunate lady referred to in the Grauniad article was quite possibly one unlucky person who happened to be in the way of one of these random sprayings.

Other possibilities though could be as others have already suggested.

No one will ever know.

Ian