Guess the Ship, it's back

Tobruk’s layout is very different because it is the only ship in the RAN that actually has aboard detachments of the other two services. 02Deck houses offices for Army and Air Force personnel, being Navy I wasn’t allowed in there so I can’t say what went on in there.

I wouldn’t put too much store in those specs. By the end of their service lives, only two of the LSLs were really the same (three if we count the first Galahad). Lancelot was the prototype and differed in detail from the following ships. Geraint and Percivale were essentially the same at the point when they retired. Tristram was heavily rebuilt post-Falklands with new superstructure and a lengthened hull. She’s now a special-forces training hulk in Portland harbour. Bedivere was completely rebuilt (they called it a SLEP) in the 90s, lengthened, made taller, new engines. It was so expensive they decided not to bother doing the same to any of the others and built the Bay class instead.

The 1986 Sir Galahad was substantially larger than the preceding ships and heavily redesigned. Tobruk looks a lot more like an original LSL than the 1986 version, the heavylift derrick excepted.

That was indeed the compartment I was interested in. Galahad’s port bridge wing was set up to act as Flyco when required (when operating both flight decks simultaneously).

What is the internal layout on Tobruk? Going from memory on Galahad…

03dk – Bridge, radio room
02dk – Captain & Chief Engineer’s cabins, radio and electrical officers’ cabins
01dk – XO, MEO cabins facing fwd, other officer cabins running aft, hospital on stbd side, EMF officer cabins stbd aft, POs cabins port side.
1dk – Troop mess fwd, crew mess and bar on port side, officers’ saloon and bar on stbd side, galley in the middle.
2dk – Crew accommodation.
3dk – Fridge flat was stbd aft off the trunking. EMF NCOs were each side of the tank deck.
4dk – EMF ORs underneath the tank deck.

Edited to add:

Here is an interesting link to specs of the Round Table class with a pic in which if you look at the following pic of HMAS Tobruk, you can clearly see the former is much smaller.

It’s a trick of the perspective and the fact that Sir Bedivere’s bridge is a deck higher than Tobruk’s. Bedivere has 10m length and c. 1000 tonnes displacement on Tobruk.

What was the compartment with the bridge-like windows beneath the port bridge wing? Flyco?

You mean this area?

That area I never had much to do with, but it was the area that controlled all forward ops; Bow movements, crane safety watch, forward flight deck ops even RAS control- it was sort of a multi purpose function center

Was that an original feature?

Yes

Would have interfered with the Chief Engineer’s cabin on an LSL. I’m guessing the internal space was used quite differently on Tobruk.

Apparently we did change more than just a couple of things on Tobruk which is why you Poms wanted to buy it off us 😀 So successful was our redesign that we’ve had many offers over the years for Tobruk. The new Sir Galahad was closer to Tobruk than the former vessels of the Round Table class and incorporated many of the Australian design changes, but was still not as capable as our vessel.

Here is an interesting link to specs of the Round Table class with a pic in which if you look at the following pic of HMAS Tobruk, you can clearly see the former is much smaller.

By comparison, here is a link on the same site to the specs of HMAS Tobruk, or Modified Round Table class

Interesting to note that though we have a larger crew, we carry a smaller troop load. The other specs are also interesting to compare but I feel I should log in and make some changes to Tobruk’s stats- I’ve never ever seen her operate any squirrels and they don’t mention Blackhawks which do operate off her.

I have only ever seen one Chinook operating off her forward deck as the aft deck isn’t big enough to operate this helo! I have seen two Seakings, flying off her- one forward and one aft, and though never seen it, I know she can also operate up to four Blackhawks- I have seen a Seaking aft and two Blackhawks forward though!

This last pic is just because this is a nice ship to talk about and I am happy to have shared some of my experience from her with someone who understands what I am talking about 🙂

What was the compartment with the bridge-like windows beneath the port bridge wing? Flyco? Was that an original feature? Would have interfered with the Chief Engineer’s cabin on an LSL. I’m guessing the internal space was used quite differently on Tobruk.

The British LSLs could take at least 12 Challengers on the tank deck, but I notice that Chally is about 6″ wider than Leo1 and Abrams is another 6″ wider again. We tried to keep that narrow trunking aft clear for embarked troops to do their PT. The container on the tank deck at the RHS of the pic above was Galahad’s “gym”. There was another (reefer) container semi-permanently on the tank deck to expand the frozen stores.

I don’t think Tobruk ever carried 12 AS-1’s at most I only remember eight but six was the usual, this allowed room for a few support trucks and a couple of Land Rovers. Tobruk never carried any extra containers as the upper deck was usually always occupied with two LCM8’s As in the pic below of one being lifted off for use (you’ll probably find that the other is already in the water on the other side awaiting clearance for manouvering behind to receive their load)

We never really needed extra cold storage because that was on of the things thought off in the first place- Tobruk’s freezer and cold storage were the size of a compartment each providing enough stores for 65 days at sea, or in real terms- 35 days at sea with enough provisions for disaster relief to sustain a small community (6000) for 1 month. Tobruk had a gym built in as part of an Army requirement right from the begining- there are 6 cycles, 6 treadmills, 2 weight benches and a couple of other machines for various other muscular work.

Looking at that pic with the LCU, how did you handle the interface between ship’s ramp and vehicle carrying landing craft? The LSL ramps couldn’t take the weight of a tank or heavy vehicle unsupported so we used a short Mexeflote Ramp Support Pontoon (RSP) moored underneath the outboard end of the stern ramp. Wasn’t necessary when offloading to a Mexe since it could act as its own RSP, but was needed for LCUs and RCLs. I’ll dig out some photos later.

Stern ramp transfers in pics- there is a pic of a dozer moving from LCM8 (AB1051) to HMAS Kanimbla as well to show that this is a common practice in our service.

The AS-1, giving clear evidence that the aft ramp could take the weight of this machine

A rather dramatic shot of a stern docking with an LSH, not the lines crossing over for stability- this wasn’t usually done, we usually had two lines either side; one tied off towards the flight deck and the other tied off two decks down about mid ramp level, the higher one usually tied off on the LCM8 towards the aft of the craft or mid way on an LSH.

As I said- it’s standard practice for us down here, no matter which vessel it is, stern transfers are done all the time with all sorts of machines.

HMAS Tobruk on exercise with Americans during Rimpac, note the AAV’s charging up the stern ramp into the tank deck 😀

As mentioned, we handled (and still do on Bays) the landing craft requirement with Mexeflotes, but could also carry an LCVP on deck, though I never saw it done (on an LSL, I have seen it done on a Bay).

During that Norwegian exercise Galahad was primarily carrying 539 ASRM so we had 13 rigid raiders, two LCAC(L)s and an RLC Workboat on the (upper) vehicle deck.

During recent exercise “Pacific Sud” with the French, HMAS Tobruk took one LCM8 and two LARC V’s as well as ASLAV’s in the tank deck from New Zealand and Australia- though the ASLAV is amphibious, due to operational concerns- all ASLAV’s debarked via the LCM8 or FNS Jaques Cartier- guess they don’t trust the ASLAV’s to float :dev2:

From what little I remember of the load plan, they packed folded Sea Kings in athwartships and maybe had as many as twelve down there, all on the tank deck. But it’s possible I’m not remembering this very well. I don’t think it was ever done, it was just another possible string in the LSL’s bow.

I’d take it that this was an operational War scenario should the Falklands ever come under threat again- it could be made into a makeshift helo carrier/ASW platform. A nice idea to have but never put into plan!

Galahad, alone among the British LSLs, could take a Chinook on the vehicle deck. I forgot about this when commenting on Chinook operations on the other topic, but I really can’t remember anything about the SHOLs or even whether it could be done whilst making way.

Here’s an old pic from back in the early 80’s of HMAS Tobruk with a Wessex on the forward flight deck with two flying by

I tried to find a pic of a CH-47 on Tobruk but for some reason I can’t (maybe I am not typing the right things in), but they do make a big hoohar down here when it’s done- sort of like a lifting of public spirits seeing this action taking place when faith and morale towards the forces is declining.

Ocean’s davits were occupied with her own LCVPs so I didn’t think to mention that possibility.

But your excellent detective work has given us the answer, it was a Condock after all!

Given the UKNL Landing force, I’m wondering if the LCVPs of NL and UK marines routinely ‘cross-deck’ (or rather: ‘cross-dock’) between NL and UK navy ships…?

Yeah I remember seeing Tobruks tank deck for the first time and felt disappointed because I had always perceived it as being far wider! It could hold the Leopard AS-1’s but they were a tight squeeze- now we’ve got the M-1A1 AIM’s there is no way that these can fit- hence why the RAN is getting the new LHD’s and new LCM8E’s (The Army LCM8’s can’t take the Abrams either, someone should have thought about that before buying the new tanks!

The British LSLs could take at least 12 Challengers on the tank deck, but I notice that Chally is about 6″ wider than Leo1 and Abrams is another 6″ wider again. We tried to keep that narrow trunking aft clear for embarked troops to do their PT. The container on the tank deck at the RHS of the pic above was Galahad’s “gym”. There was another (reefer) container semi-permanently on the tank deck to expand the frozen stores.

Looking at that pic with the LCU, how did you handle the interface between ship’s ramp and vehicle carrying landing craft? The LSL ramps couldn’t take the weight of a tank or heavy vehicle unsupported so we used a short Mexeflote Ramp Support Pontoon (RSP) moored underneath the outboard end of the stern ramp. Wasn’t necessary when offloading to a Mexe since it could act as its own RSP, but was needed for LCUs and RCLs. I’ll dig out some photos later.

As is widely common knowledge, HMAS Tobruk (L50 for the complete nerd) is different to the British counterparts, our craft has a 70tonne Derrick forward of the bridge, this was used to lift LCM8’s on and off the forward deck area for deployment aborad.

As mentioned, we handled (and still do on Bays) the landing craft requirement with Mexeflotes, but could also carry an LCVP on deck, though I never saw it done (on an LSL, I have seen it done on a Bay).

During that Norwegian exercise Galahad was primarily carrying 539 ASRM so we had 13 rigid raiders, two LCAC(L)s and an RLC Workboat on the (upper) vehicle deck.

Interesting what you you said about the load plan and it being a Helo carrier, I don’t think many could be carried, at the most four Seakings, with one on the aft platform. Tobruk was capable of deploying with a CH-47 flying off the forward deck area, this wasn’t done often as LCM8’s were more flexible for use in our missions, but she did keep the practice up- C Sqdn/ 5 Regt love doing this drill as it gives newbies in the RAN a heart attack due to the size of the Aircraft coming in- though in recent years it hasn’t been done due to the current operational tempo of the Chinooks.

From what little I remember of the load plan, they packed folded Sea Kings in athwartships and maybe had as many as twelve down there, all on the tank deck. But it’s possible I’m not remembering this very well. I don’t think it was ever done, it was just another possible string in the LSL’s bow.

Galahad, alone among the British LSLs, could take a Chinook on the vehicle deck. I forgot about this when commenting on Chinook operations on the other topic, but I really can’t remember anything about the SHOLs or even whether it could be done whilst making way.

Just found this in a quick search on HMAS Tobruk, it shows various pics of the Tank deck and the aft door where the Leopards could fit but the Abrams couldn’t. It also shows several pics of the Derrick being used.

The LSLs, especially Galahad, really had an amazing combination of features and lifting gear. Galahad is/was the only one with a lift (the boat is sitting on it, it’s a 20T scissor lift). She had a 20T travelling crane on the tank deck (you can see a spreader for it in the photo), a 25T crane serving the after hatch/lift and two 5T cranes serving the forward hatch/ramp and the two small holds beneath the forward part of the tank deck. Also winches and gear to secure a Mexeflote on each side, and the bow and stern doors and ramps.

I think the boat photo gives a good idea of how small the tank deck really was, that’s its maximum width. Tiny compared to the Bays that replaced them. There was actually a load plan developed for use of Sir Galahad as an aircraft transport, filling the tank deck with Sea Kings brought down on the lift.

One of my favourite LSL tricks, because it’s essentially illegal under the civvy rules that the RFA pretends to operate under, was to steam along an open fjord at low speed (3-4kts) with the stern ramp open and the end dipped in the water (there are no other watertight doors down aft, the ramp is it). An LCVP would drive up to the ramp and you could transfer personnel over it whilst underway.

An LSL really gave you a large portion of the capability of an LSD in a wonderfully small package.

Yeah I remember seeing Tobruks tank deck for the first time and felt disappointed because I had always perceived it as being far wider! It could hold the Leopard AS-1’s but they were a tight squeeze- now we’ve got the M-1A1 AIM’s there is no way that these can fit- hence why the RAN is getting the new LHD’s and new LCM8E’s (The Army LCM8’s can’t take the Abrams either, someone should have thought about that before buying the new tanks!

As is widely common knowledge, HMAS Tobruk (L50 for the complete nerd) is different to the British counterparts, our craft has a 70tonne Derrick forward of the bridge, this was used to lift LCM8’s on and off the forward deck area for deployment aborad. I remember hearing that the British were so impressed with Tobruk and the changes we’d made to the basic vessel that they wanted to buy her off us. Well we still have her and she is a life saver to the South Pacific and South East Asian nations- many of whom have been greatful that she’s deployed to help after natural disasters.

An interesting side note, HMAS Tobruk has different designations depending on the mission- she is referred to as either an LSH or and LST, LSH for disaster relief and LST for excercises with local forces where ASLAVS are deployed aboard.

Interesting what you you said about the load plan and it being a Helo carrier, I don’t think many could be carried, at the most four Seakings, with one on the aft platform. Tobruk was capable of deploying with a CH-47 flying off the forward deck area, this wasn’t done often as LCM8’s were more flexible for use in our missions, but she did keep the practice up- C Sqdn/ 5 Regt love doing this drill as it gives newbies in the RAN a heart attack due to the size of the Aircraft coming in- though in recent years it hasn’t been done due to the current operational tempo of the Chinooks.

I know your favourite trick- we do it as well 😀

Ocean’s davits were occupied with her own LCVPs so I didn’t think to mention that possibility.

But your excellent detective work has given us the answer, it was a Condock after all!

Wan Strikes again!

– HMS Ocean can carry LCVPs on davids.

Ocean’s davits were occupied with her own LCVPs so I didn’t think to mention that possibility.

But your excellent detective work has given us the answer, it was a Condock after all!

Definitely weren’t carried by a British naval unit, no LPDs were available for Cold Response 06 (there was a big issue made of COMATG’s HQ being ashore) and the Bays weren’t in service at that time. The amphibious shipping present during the exercise was entirely British (Ocean + LSLs) except for the NL-LCVPs and whatever Norwegian boats were around. If Rotterdam had brought them, she didn’t participate in any of the exercise. There was some mention at the time of Condocks http://www.condock.de/fleet.php but I don’t think that was in direct relation to the LCVPs.

– The only LPD that the Dutch had at that time was Rotterdam as Johan de Witt wasn’t commissioned yet in 2006.
– HMS Ocean can carry LCVPs on davids.

In navolging van deelname aan Battle Griffin 2005, was SFMarns wederom ingeschreven voor een grote Nato-oefening in Noorwegen. Deelname aan Cold Response 2006 (CR06) bestond uit de Netherlands Special Operations Task Group (NL SOTG), die in het kader van Nato Response Force 6 (NRF-6) tot 1 juli 2006 gereed staat op vijf dagen notice-to-move. De NL SOTG bestaat uit twee C-teams en een ML-team van de 2e SF-cie (Laverkcie) en een stafelement, bestaande uit personeel van het Amfibisch Verkenningspeloton (Afmverkpel) en SFMarns, aangevuld met een aantal specialisten vanuit het Marine Training Command (MTC). Behalve NL SOTG deden Hr.Ms. Van Amstel, Hr.Ms.Willemstad en de Eerste Bootcompagnie van het Amfibisch Ondersteuningsbataljon (1- Btcie/Amfostbat) mee aan CR06.

=

In imitation of participation to Battle Griffin 2005, SFMarns had been again registered for large Nato-oefening in Norway. Participation to Cold Response 2006 (CR06) existed from the Netherlands Special Operations ask Group (Netherlands SOTG), which within the framework of NATO Response Force 6 (NRF-6) states on five days notice-to-move, ready up to 1 July 2006. THE Netherlands SOTG exist from two c teams and ML-team of 2e SF-cie (Laverkcie) and the staff element, existing from staff of the amphibious exploration group (Afmverkpel) and SFMarns, with a number of specialists from Navy training completed Command (MTC). Except Netherlands SOTG Hr.Ms did. Van Amstel, Hr.Ms.Wi llemstad and the first boat company of the amphibious support battalion (1 – Btcie/Amfostbat) to CR06.

Dutch ship contingent in CR06: Van Amstel, Willemstad and 1 boat company.
No LPD.

De 1ste Bootgroep van het Amfostbat is, in het kader van de samenwerking met 539 Assault Squadron Royal Marines (ASRM), volgens het UKNL/LF concept ontplooid voor een Winterdeployment te Noorwegen.Wegens de talloze verplichtingen die het bataljon heeft, is er gekozen voor een configuratie van 3 x LCVP Mk3 met een kleine staf, ondersteund door technisch en logistiek personeel.
…
De vaar- en voertuigen werden 26 januari aan boord van Condock 5 geladen. De rest van de eenheid vloog op maandag 30 januari met transport van de Koninklijke Luchtmacht (KLu) naar Evenes. Na het ontladen, omvaren en installeren op Hellar Bogen kon de skitraining aanvangen.

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1st the boat group of the Amfostbat is, within the framework of the cooperation with 539 Assault Squadron Royal Navy (ASRM), according to the UKNL/LF concept developed for Winterdeployment at Because of the innumerable obligations which the battalion has, has been chosen for a configuration of 3 x LCVP Mk3 supported with a small staff, by technically and logistical staff.
…
The sailing and vehicles became 26 January to border of Condock 5 charged. The rest of the entity flew on Monday 30 January with transport of the royal air power (KLu) to Evenes. After, the omvaren unloaded and install on Hellar arcs could the ski training start.

http://www.defensie.nl/_system/handlers/generaldownloadHandler.ashx?filename=/media/QPO-01-2006_tcm46-126364.pdf

Indeed, Condock was used (NL MoD source)

The LSLs, especially Galahad, really had an amazing combination of features and lifting gear. Galahad is/was the only one with a lift (the boat is sitting on it, it’s a 20T scissor lift). She had a 20T travelling crane on the tank deck (you can see a spreader for it in the photo), a 25T crane serving the after hatch/lift and two 5T cranes serving the forward hatch/ramp and the two small holds beneath the forward part of the tank deck. Also winches and gear to secure a Mexeflote on each side, and the bow and stern doors and ramps.

I think the boat photo gives a good idea of how small the tank deck really was, that’s its maximum width. Tiny compared to the Bays that replaced them. There was actually a load plan developed for use of Sir Galahad as an aircraft transport, filling the tank deck with Sea Kings brought down on the lift.

One of my favourite LSL tricks, because it’s essentially illegal under the civvy rules that the RFA pretends to operate under, was to steam along an open fjord at low speed (3-4kts) with the stern ramp open and the end dipped in the water (there are no other watertight doors down aft, the ramp is it). An LCVP would drive up to the ramp and you could transfer personnel over it whilst underway.

An LSL really gave you a large portion of the capability of an LSD in a wonderfully small package.

You know mate I even searched the SBS trying to find that craft, I see what you are talking about those- facinating. I don’t know what you guys call it, but we call it a fly bar, mainly because we used to fly the flag from there on our boats.

That pic I posted came directly from the Royal Navy website where I found it searching for RHIBs 😉 It matched perfectly the one you posted up toward the top and the one you had under covers. For me what gave it away was I did a spell on HMAS Tobruk which as you may be away is very similar to the Sir Galahad. The Uniforms as i mentioned looked either British or German so I took a punt and said British (the English writing steared me in that direction). And finally I knew it was an LST because recently I was looking at SAS Drakensberg which has a lovely virtual tour on the SAN website and it shows how the forward deck lifts up to provide access to the hold- remembering that I drew all my conclusions and came up with what I did!

The Regatta craft looks like it was impersonating a Bay class vessel, certainly has all the hallmarks of one!

Correct! Mounts Bay was present at the regatta. I don’t remember if the Mounts Bay raft won.

As for the mystery pic- it is most definately a RHIB of the Royal Navy, it’s being transported to Norway for operation White Mink and Cold Responce, it was taken aboard RFA Sir Galahad to Borgen, Norway where it was off loaded by personel from 17 P&M Rgt RLC (All hail me)

A good guess, a very good guess, but still not quite right. :diablo:

The boat in the pic you’ve posted (credit: Me!) actually is a RHIB, but it’s a different boat to the one in the question, which is an RM Offshore Raiding Craft (ORC) (which isn’t a RHIB because it’s not inflatable). You can compare the roll bar structure at the back (what’s the proper name for that?) and see that it doesn’t match.

IIRC they never did get either of those across the stern ramp and up the jetty, they both had to be lifted off by crane. I found I’ve actually got some video of the start of the boat offloading saga and of some LCVP operations, I might have a go at uploading to YouTube or something later.

I just noticed Anixtu that you posted two pics from the same event, The Rhib in the hold and the stern door of Sir Galahad further up- how interesting

Hey Wan, you read for a real challenge, here comes another one of mine 😉

I got it first 🙂

That makes you DA MAN! 😀

You know I looked at LCVP Mk5 and then at Mk4 didn’t think to go back to a Mk3 did I- Doh!

The Regatta craft looks like it was impersonating a Bay class vessel, certainly has all the hallmarks of one!

Note the cross bar aft on the deck, the orange and white ships boats, Block Island structure and the long aft for a flight deck! (Thank you I’ll take my extra points now) 😀

As for the mystery pic- it is most definately a RHIB of the Royal Navy, it’s being transported to Norway for operation White Mink and Cold Responce, it was taken aboard RFA Sir Galahad to Borgen, Norway where it was off loaded by personel from 17 P&M Rgt RLC (All hail me)

Dutch LVCP Mk 3: RNthN owns 6, usually carried by RNN LPDs over long distances. I suspect HNLMS Rotterdam (or possibly even a British ship e.g. Albion) carried them to Norway but that they operate independently while in Norway.

Definitely weren’t carried by a British naval unit, no LPDs were available for Cold Response 06 (there was a big issue made of COMATG’s HQ being ashore) and the Bays weren’t in service at that time. The amphibious shipping present during the exercise was entirely British (Ocean + LSLs) except for the NL-LCVPs and whatever Norwegian boats were around. If Rotterdam had brought them, she didn’t participate in any of the exercise. There was some mention at the time of Condocks http://www.condock.de/fleet.php but I don’t think that was in direct relation to the LCVPs.

The RCLs self-deployed to vicinity of Narvik but they are a bit bigger and self-deploy to the Med etc.

The pic with the boat on trailer: is it a Pacific 22/28 Rigid Inflatable (RIBs)?

Nope.

RCL: Told you it looked army …. 😉

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramped_Craft_Logistic

http://www.army.mod.uk/equipment/boats/1540.aspx

Dutch LVCP Mk 3: RNthN owns 6, usually carried by RNN LPDs over long distances. I suspect HNLMS Rotterdam (or possibly even a British ship e.g. Albion) carried them to Norway but that they operate independently while in Norway.

The pic with the boat on trailer: is it a Pacific 22/28 Rigid Inflatable (RIBs)?

I got it first 🙂