A small entry in the Daily Telegraph In Memoriam section reminded me of Guy Gibson’s loss 67 years ago tonight…..
“Gibson returned to operational duties in 1944 after pestering Bomber Command, and was killed along with his navigator Sqn Ldr Jim Warwick, on a bombing raid on Rheydt (nowadays a borough of Mönchengladbach) when his de Havilland Mosquito XX, KB267, crashed near Steenbergen, the Netherlands, on 19 September 1944. He was operating that night as a Pathfinder Master Bomber on the roster of RAF Coningsby but flying from the satellite field RAF Hemswell where he was also acting Station Commander. He was 26 years old.
It had been assumed for many years that he had been shot down, but following the discovery of the wreckage of his plane, it was found that a fault with the fuel tank selector had meant that the aircraft had simply run out of fuel. An eye-witness account detailed how his aircraft circled Steenbergen in the Netherlands, and then heard its engines ‘splutter and stop’.” (from Wikipedia.)
By: T-21 - 11th October 2011 at 17:22
Friendly fire is plausible but did a hung up target indicator catch fire in the bomb bay ?
Good operational record of Guy Gibsons flights in Richard Morris book. Consider the best for accuracy.
By: TonyT - 11th October 2011 at 17:05
Dutch military recovered it, person responsible was really put out by the fuel issues quoted about its setting when the wreckage was recovered as he states the fuel coock was never recovered.
Nothing was mentioned of the damage but it was noted a red pathfinder type flare fire was noted burning at the crash site and the remains of the incendiary was found…. as it went down in flames then the incendiaries went out, one would doubt that a lot of the fuse remained to show “bullet damage”
“coock” to get round the profanity filter……
By: Arabella-Cox - 11th October 2011 at 16:55
I’m aware that several chunks of the airframe are on display, so does this mean that the crash-site has been dug in recent times?
It would be interesting to hear of any corroborating evidence such as bullet damage or even the presence of .303s amongst the debris – these might have survived a post crash fire?
Just speculation on my part and I suppose we’d have heard about it if it had happened.
By: TonyT - 11th October 2011 at 16:52
Any chance of finding a copy in the usa? is it distributed here?
If you get stuck we could always come to an arrangement and I could post it out to you..
I just hope Key don’t screw it up as it is pretty much perfect as is.
By: FarlamAirframes - 11th October 2011 at 16:41
Read the article yesterday.
Scientifically speaking – formulate a theory and then try and disprove it. Only when you cannot disprove it do you have a valid hypothesis that you can publish.
I lost my rag when it stated that this was conclusive. It is possible – likely probable – but it is not conclusive!
When a full list of all aircraft losses on that night has been published- then we could have a more convincing probability.
By: TonyT - 11th October 2011 at 16:40
and a very good mag it is too
hope the format and quality of the articles remains unaltered
one of the best mags out there at the moment
Agreed I have been buying it since day one.
By: JDK - 11th October 2011 at 14:52
One of my jobs in the book trade used to be listening to the publisher’s representatives pitching books for my shop/s to take. I really can’t see (worthy though the intent would be) anyone selling in a book about ‘our’ chaps who were accidentally killed by ‘our chaps’.
As Andy’s touched on, those tragic stories are, sometimes, rather covered as a result of fame, or as a result of remarkable persistent research for other, equally valid reasons.
Thought provoking point!
By: Arabella-Cox - 11th October 2011 at 14:32
Possibly so, but its not exactly a very ‘popular’ subject with publishers etc though there is most certainly a story there. Some of those covered in “Finding The Few” were friendly-fire victims, Sgt Brimble and Fg Off Michael Doulton amongst them.
By: One of the Few - 11th October 2011 at 14:28
Andy i don`t know if its been written yet,( and i don`t have a copy!), but those 89+ friendly fire incidents in the Battle of Britain must surely merit a book about the circumstances surrounding their losses, like Eddie Egan, etc. It would be a fascinating read.
By: Arabella-Cox - 11th October 2011 at 10:24
Quite so, James.
That this story relates to Gibson is certainly interesting, historically fascinating and obviously ‘newsworthy’, too. Those others to whom you and I refer, James, will most likely never have their story told.
By: JDK - 11th October 2011 at 10:19
But who has heard of (or, sadly, is interested in) Sgt John Smith shot down and killed by his own side?
Or those thousands on both sides in both world wars killed in training, and never even got to theatre?
By: jack windsor - 11th October 2011 at 10:11
hi,
is,nt the picture of Gibson and his crews further down the page in the Mail report of him with 106Sq and Manchesters…
regards
jack…
By: Moggy C - 11th October 2011 at 09:58
I doubt the encounter was deliberate.
Gibson’s aircraft would have no AI fitted and the bomber stream would have been pretty spread out. Particularly if he and his Nav were busy monitoring the ground, the speed advantage of the Mosquito would quite possibly bring them up behind a friendly.
Moggy
By: paul178 - 11th October 2011 at 09:53
if the friendly fire bit is accurate, I don’t blame the gunner. Considering the circumstances, shoot first, ask questions later would seem the best option.
Had he held his fire and it turned out to be a German night fighter, an entire Lanc crew is dead. I have to imagine there would have been better ways to tail a friendly bomber then by pulling up behind it close enough to get shot, in particular at night.
Exactly the point I was going to make! If this was what happened I think Gibson and his crew member would have been instrumental in causing this incident, not the poor bl**dy gunner who lived with this on his conscious for the rest of his life.
By: Arabella-Cox - 11th October 2011 at 08:09
The point that has possibly been missed in all of this is that if so-called ‘friendly fire’ was responsible then it is neither unusual nor surprising.
However, I feel that many would be surprised to know the true scale of friendly fire losses on all sides during WW2. It was absolutely collosal and a recent book (‘Blue on Blue’) looks at this issue in depth. Just three miles from where I am sitting now there were two Beaufighter crashes – both of them to friendly fire. Remember, too, the first RAF Fighter Command casualty of WW2 was a Hurricane pilot shot down by Spitfires in ‘The Battle of Barking Creek’ and in the Battle of Britain alone I have dozens of scores of confirmed examples (well over 89 that I am aware of – many fatal) of ‘friendly fire’. Of course, there was another well known RAF pilot who (probably!) fell to ‘friendly fire’. too!!
It was just an unfortunate and inevitable consequence of air fighting of this nature. However, the big names like Bader and Gibson make the news. But who has heard of (or, sadly, is interested in) Sgt John Smith shot down and killed by his own side?
By: Dan Johnson - 11th October 2011 at 02:50
if the friendly fire bit is accurate, I don’t blame the gunner. Considering the circumstances, shoot first, ask questions later would seem the best option.
Had he held his fire and it turned out to be a German night fighter, an entire Lanc crew is dead. I have to imagine there would have been better ways to tail a friendly bomber then by pulling up behind it close enough to get shot, in particular at night.
By: me109g4 - 10th October 2011 at 23:52
Well, that was quite a shock,,, i remembered reading as a kid that he had been the master bomber and just never returned. I dont envy mr. McCormacks situation at all, knowing for all those yrs. what he did. May all involved RIP.
By: Arabella-Cox - 10th October 2011 at 19:54
Now I am just waiting for my copy of ‘Britain at War’ to drop through the letterbox.
Moggy
I think you should chase it up, Moggy.
It was out on 24 September. Mine arrived soon after, on about 27th I think.
By: PanzerJohn - 10th October 2011 at 19:22
Todays Mail, friendly fire….
By: D1566 - 10th October 2011 at 18:51
Likewise … picked up a copy (of BaW) in Smiths about a week ago … 🙂
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September 19, 2011 at 4:44 pm