Handley Page Drawings

Dave,

The source you never would have expected to be worthwhile, usually yields some unexpected results. 😉

Speaking from experience.

Cheers

Cees

Gloster….

dhfan,

The set that BAe have came from Kingston-upon-Thames. It is a good question about Gloster and one that I have never followed up…may be worth some investigation (unless anyone else knows!!!)

I appreciate this is painfully obvious, but as Gloster built virtually all Typhoons, what happened to their drawings?

Dave, that’s very kind of you to say, I appreciate the support from such a welcoming, polite and knowledgeable online community. I am primarily a museum person (and archaeologist funnily enough) by training rather than an aviation specialist, but hopefully I can answer questions people may have about the Duxford collections. We do of course also deal with general enquiries, many of which are shall we say ‘googleable’.

As to drawings, maintenance units would have used reference/construction drawings (but not full-on blueprints) but of course as with most obsolete documentation these would have been destroyed as a matter of routine, though there are always some survivors. We have some 1960s/70s reference posters of some sort for things like the Buccaneer; not terribly informative but rather more understandable than the ‘extreme close-up’ views of individual components.

Has anyone tried Air Historical Branch at Bentley Priory? I was there the other week and one of the things I forgot to ask is whether or not they look after any drawings. It wasn’t mentioned so I fear its unlikely.

I am not really too clued up on what happened with the aircraft drawings as such, but I wonder, as well as the factories that were manufacturing an aircraft type, where else would a full set of drawings also have been supplied to?

Did the RAF maintenance units that did overhauls, etc., get a set of manufacturer’s drawings for reference? Or, as different types of drawings would probably be used for maintenance as opposed to manufacture, would there not have been copies made for the RAF?

I just want to add, Jonathon, I’m sure most will agree when i say you’re a most welcome new poster to this forum. I am certain that with your enthusiasm and helpfulness, and the fact that you can provide first-hand information from within the IWM, many people will be enjoying your contributions. It is great to see.

Hmm. The only ‘she’s in the Collections team are the admin staff. One of the few people with the authority to erm, authorise that is John Delaney, Chris Chippington’s effective replacement (though he has a somewhat role in fact) who is the Duxford Collections Manager and my immediate line manager. I will have a word with him for you in the new year. The cockpit will have to an extent, its own microclimate inside the perspex, so that may have to be taken into account, as well as the difficulty of putting it back together. Fingers crossed, its conceivable that we may be replacing the perspex for AirSpace display, which would be a simple matter of you being there with your camera when its done.

Contact…

Jonathon,

The guy I was originally told to ask for was Chris Chippington. Obviously I found out that he no longer worked there when I called and was put through to someone else by the receptionist. I can’t lay my hands on the name of the person at the moment, although she was very helpful at the time. She was going to deal with finding out how much it would cost to remove the perspex for the day.

Will look through my book tonight to check for the name(s)

Dave

re: Contact…

I will dig through the notes I have at home re people I have spoken to at Duxford.

Dave

I believe my colleague Peter Collins, who reorganised the drawings we have here, has an electronic list of some sort underway. When he comes back after xmas I will have a word for you.

Out of interest, who have you spoken to regarding the Typhoon cockpit and getting its measurements? I may be able to boot some bottoms for you.

Tiffy…

Cees,

When I can get the accurate measurements of the main spar lugs then I can actually start putting things together. I have been talking to some other people at Duxford in the hope I can get permission to do some measuring of their cockpit (they did say that they can organise having the perspex removed if I pay for the time taken) but they have not given me a quote for this yet.

Drawings would be an even better start…I even have all the drawing numbers I need!!.

Jonathon,

Do you have an electronic list of the drawings you have for the Hurricane? There are numerous drawings that are shared between the Hurricane and Tornado/Typhoon, there are some A.Std drawings that are shared from early aircraft through to Tempest/Sea Fury construction.

Its a frustrating subject – in the USA, one can get drawings for just about any part of any WW2 aircraft made in the USA. All are held by the Smithsonian, and are freely available.

In the UK, survival of drawings was down to the individual manufacturer. Whilst BAe have an extensive archive from some manufacturers, most notably de Havilland, other manufacturers are barely represented. For copyright and product liability reasons, it is very difficult to get copies of those drawings that BAe keep in any case.

No doubt things will improve in time – at least the drawings of the DH light aircraft are now in the care of de Havilland Support, who seem to be excellent custodians – if only I could get a set of Mossie ones!

Bruce

We have the following Hawker drawings:

-Hundreds of Hurricane I & II drawings both original, copied and third party created.

Obviously doesn’t include any of that elusive correct spinner for these Hurricane Mk1 restorations…… 🙁

Drawings are pretty much under my remit at the moment. We have incomplete sets of blueprints (blue on white paper) for the Halifax and Victor and a handful of construction drawings (b&w line drawings) of some sort for the Hastings. That’s all I could find on an initial look; it would be best if you could make an appointment through me for a day in the new year when you can come and look at them. I can then confirm what else we might have in the meantime.

[EDIT] I’ve just seen your location! In that case just let me know how you might want to proceed.

Best wishes,

Jonathan

Hello Jonathan,

I enjoyed the discussion about the drawings etc. long may it continue as it is a very important topic regarding restoration. Especially regarding the Tiffie drawings as it would be about time for Dave to start building his 😉

Harry F Mitchell already collected the Halifax drawings I selected from Duxford and had them copied. If all goes well I will meet him on January 2nd at Lambeth where I will receive them. He wil make arrangements with the IWM staff there so we can meet in private without others interfering.

Cheers

Cees

When I was doing research on surviving engines I found that the engine at Duxford was a gift from Cambridge department of engineering…there is a high chance that this engine is from a different airframe or it may never have been in an airframe at all.

Out of interest do Duxford find smaller items i.e. the Tiffy cockpit difficult to deal with? I spent alot of time there the cockpit a couple of years ago. I almost walked past it tucked away between the two pillars and only one other person stopped to even read the note on the firewall, and then swiftly walked away!!! Given the history of the airfield I would have thought more emphasis would have been placed on it…almost seems as though it doesn’t fit in with their requirements!! Any plans to restore it in the near future (I noticed it starting to get surface rust on the tubes)?

Sorry for all the questions….thanks for taking the time to answer my others!.

Dave

p.s. do duxford hold any Hawker drawings?

I would PM but I’m sure no-one minds the hijack as it will keep the thread active until the originator spots it again. Yours are also questions others might like to see answers to!!

I’m afraid the cockpit and many other ‘smaller’ exhibits have been neglected in the past, but this is set to change in 2006 with the creation of AirSpace. I’m pleased to say that the cockpit and the engine are currently slated to appear, although I have no information on any planned conservation for them. The priorities post-AirSpace are to be the Vulcan and Shackleton, not necessarily in that order. It’s not clear yet how they’ll be interpreted, but mention is sure to be made of the DX connections as well as the rareity of surviving Typhoon artefacts. The current thematic approach would tend to focus on its battlefield role, I can say that much.

I’ll see if I can put in a special word for it during the meetings!

We have the following Hawker drawings:

-Hundreds of Hurricane I & II drawings both original, copied and third party created.
-Hunter general assembly drawings
-Hart schematics (from an aviation publication though)

As well as various Hawker-Siddeley (and BAe etc), including Nimrod, Harrier and most interestingly (to me) a 3-view of the P.1127/Kestrel

Bear in mind that London may still have some such drawings that we aren’t as yet reacquainted with!

Tiffy….

When I was doing research on surviving engines I found that the engine at Duxford was a gift from Cambridge department of engineering…there is a high chance that this engine is from a different airframe or it may never have been in an airframe at all.

Out of interest do Duxford find smaller items i.e. the Tiffy cockpit difficult to deal with? I spent alot of time there the cockpit a couple of years ago. I almost walked past it tucked away between the two pillars and only one other person stopped to even read the note on the firewall, and then swiftly walked away!!! Given the history of the airfield I would have thought more emphasis would have been placed on it…almost seems as though it doesn’t fit in with their requirements!! Any plans to restore it in the near future (I noticed it starting to get surface rust on the tubes)?

Sorry for all the questions….thanks for taking the time to answer my others!.

Dave

p.s. do duxford hold any Hawker drawings?

Jonathon,

Sorry to Cees and everyone for hijacking the thread but I was wondering if you may have any history on the Typhoon cockpit you have at Duxford? I have tried writing and calling Duxford on a number of occasions over the years and never got an answer, I think I was contacting the wrong people. I believe it may have been a crashed aircraft that became an instructional airframe when not repaired. I have also been told that the cockpit did include the engine bearers at one stage…these may still be at Duxford!!

More out of hope than anything…do Duxford have archive drawings for any Hawker Aircraft esp. the Typhoon?

Regards
Dave

Dave, I’ve enquired myself about the Tiffy cockpit; I’m afraid its one of those age-old inheritances about which we have very little object history or provenance. You know as much as I do in that its believed to be an instructional tool from an OTU or similar, and that the Sabre engine may or may not be from the same airframe. As to the engine bearers? Long gone I’m afraid, or deep in store. If its the latter, they’ll come to light as we work towards Accreditation.

Typhoon Drawings…

BAe have a full set and there is a repair set on glass plate held by BMW (ex rover). The RAF musuem did have some but these were the ones sent to BAe after they were rescued from Kingston Upon Thames. I am always hopeful that there may be others out there…..

Dave – I would be surprised if Typhoon drawings survive anywhere in significant numbers. I presume you have already asked the RAF Museum too?

Re: Duxford…

Jonathon,

Sorry to Cees and everyone for hijacking the thread but I was wondering if you may have any history on the Typhoon cockpit you have at Duxford? I have tried writing and calling Duxford on a number of occasions over the years and never got an answer, I think I was contacting the wrong people. I believe it may have been a crashed aircraft that became an instructional airframe when not repaired. I have also been told that the cockpit did include the engine bearers at one stage…these may still be at Duxford!!

More out of hope than anything…do Duxford have archive drawings for any Hawker Aircraft esp. the Typhoon?

Regards
Dave

Hi all,

Yesterday evening I had a very pleasant telephone conversation with Harry Fraser Mitchell of the Handley Page Association regarding the surviving drawings (Halifax ones in my case of course) in the care of the IWM.

As I was curious I wondered what happened to prevent the drawings to be burned as was ordered initially. Well, in february 1970 when the receivers came in and instructions were given to burn the archives, a lot of people suddenly took action and during the day and evening an enormous amount of drawings were taken away and they finally ended up with the IWM at Duxford (Ashley, can you confirm this?).

When asked he told me that drawings for the following aircraft are still surviving:

0/400 and V/1500 bombers, the early types in the twenties, very little of the HP42 (as you know) some Heyford, Harrow and Hampden drawings, a large amount of Halifax drawings, very little of the Hastings suprisingly and no Victor drawings. But there is a complete set of those extant formerly with the Air Ministry. So by quick action some very important drawings were saved. Pity that couldn’t be said about the Stirling drawings.

Cheers

Cees

Drawings are pretty much under my remit at the moment. We have incomplete sets of blueprints (blue on white paper) for the Halifax and Victor and a handful of construction drawings (b&w line drawings) of some sort for the Hastings. That’s all I could find on an initial look; it would be best if you could make an appointment through me for a day in the new year when you can come and look at them. I can then confirm what else we might have in the meantime.

[EDIT] I’ve just seen your location! In that case just let me know how you might want to proceed.

Best wishes,

Jonathan