Harlech P38 again.

Moggy what have you done, yet another P38 Harlech thread going over all the same issues as you rightly say “again”. The only news was the grant and Ancient Monument status. So here we have another survey, but of what? The sand? How do you protected it physically when it is buried under sand in the tidal zone? Although the beach is fairly isolated in winter there is a good car park at the rear of the beach and only a few locals dogging, I mean walking their dogs. It would be very easy to access the site, which is certainly not a secret anymore, and plunder. No legal status of any form would stop the looters, you would need a 24 hour guard. When I visited the site in December 2014 I had no problems working out where the location was and that the she was buried again.

Forget Tigar and fizzing all been done to death in previous threads. If someone wants to pay to recover her that’s their business. If the Welsh government want to stump up money even better. If the government money pays for recovery perhaps to the Caernarfon museum just along the coast all well and good. The big questions are would the museum want it and do the government understand what is necessary after recovery? The answer in both cases is probably not.

You don’t need thousands of dollars to find that answer…

HERE

Thanks Bob.

So who is the UK TIGHAR member?

Matt Rimmer and Robert Elliott are both listed as members of TIGHAR. Last seen there on November 13, 2015. Neither one has had their comments responded to by management.

You don’t need thousands of dollars to find that answer…

HERE

So who is the UK TIGHAR member?

According to that returns sheet, Richard Gillespie must work very hard as average hours per week amount to 80. No wonder nothing done re. P38, run out of time.:rolleyes:

Just had a look on their website to find out a bit more about TIGHAR as I don’t know much about them. There is a link to a “form 990” (which i assume all non profit organisations in the US have to declare.) Makes for interesting reading.

http://tighar.org/TIGHAR990s/2013_2014TIGHAR990.pdf

Total revenue 452,844

Then expenses listed as
Richard E Gillespie salary 185,623
Legal 52,939
Other general admin 32,376
Occupancy 29,317
Member services 27,615

All greater than
Earhart program 20,285
Devastator program 13,038

No mention of any income or expenditure on the P38

I pay membership fees to numerous aviation charities (all in the UK) but if I saw those figures from any of them I would be asking questions!

It’s not exactly ancient and it’s not a monument. Am I missing something here?

The term, whilst misleading, does afford a better degree of protection to historical artefacts; aside from the obvious such as Stonehenge, the same status is given to (for instance) Meldon Viaduct in North Devon and nearer to my home, Wynnstay Colliery winding house, near Wrexham. Rightly so in my humble opinion.

I used to enjoy amending/updating vintage aircraft survivor details on Wikipedia, until my IP was blocked by the mods for continually attempted to point out on the TIGHAR page that they hadn’t recovered any historic aircraft, with detail of each project.

Good grief what a wasted opportunity that is. Is that how it’s going to stay?

Rob

Years old photo, when it and quite a few other wrecks, including the Ju 52, were outside as part of a special display ( IIRC the opening both the new hangar).
All are inside and being worked on as funds permit – so very slowly.

So the best that the international recovery group can do is leave it in place…in salt water?

Wow, expertise like that is truly inspiring!

With their track record of having recovered exactly…well, no aircraft, but continuing to use that name with a straight face, I might as well call myself the richest man in the world, a world famous test pilot and international man of mystery.

I’ve read that those who frequent the group’s forum report it’s heavily moderated and a recent change means non-dues paying visitors are not allowed to post or even ask questions (seems an odd way of encouraging people to join or be transparent in an attempt to answer critics). It’s also said that members who ask potentially embarrassing questions or disagree with the leadership are banned or otherwise censored. A list of recent bannings/moderator actions was apparently posted, so at least they’re upfront about their forum policies.

Let’s not forget the last time it was mentioned here was then it (or a member of it…it was never made clear, but to the best of my knowledge the group never disavowed it) forced the non-commercial WIX forum to cease all discussions of it with the threat of a financially ruinous lawsuit against the forum’s owner.

And yes, it is a tax exempt charity and according to official records, the leader is paid a six-figure sum annually.

If I’m mistaken in any of the above statements, please feel free to correct me.

I came up with a ‘new’ song, well I say ‘new’

‘Maid Of Harlech’ Rot awayee,
TIGHAR is hov’ring o’er ye,
In the sand you sink beneath us,
Hear ye not her rivets creak?’

Apologies to the writer of ‘Men of Harlech’

the following was posted on Tighars P38 forum page last October in response to a post and a link detailing local UK activities relating to the wreck

There was no management response to that post so the following was posted more recently against a background of a stated need to raise $1-3M? for Niku IX.

Here is the management response

Which is code for:
– A local UK resident found a submerged P38 on the beach in Wales in the UK one day and using google contacted Tighar assuming that they MUST be the International Historic Aircraft Recovery “eggsperts” (despite never having achieved one), a DoD salvage permit was granted
– and nothing was done
– and the DoD salvage permit has expired
– and the local resident is now exploring local funding to recover and display the airframe on the foreshore
– Tighars worst kept secret location is well known to most locals and interested enthusiasts/museum groups, and apparantly visible on either google earth or near maps?
– all of this in a tiny country cram packed with experienced aviation preservation groups, National Collections and volunteer museums which have access to local resources and expertise (that have recovered a submerged 4 engined Halifax Bomber, twin engined Wellington bomber, last surviving Do-17, or dismantled and relocated Shackletons, Vulcans and Airliners around the country)
– and that makes Tighar look frankly just like an inexperienced “2 bit” husband and wife team operating out of the back bedroom of their horse farm but implying inflated capability and expertise under a misleading “International Aircraft Recovery” Name (but having never even attempted one, and all located @3500 miles away in another country!).

(I personally have “recovered” more aircraft (including from overseas) than Tighar has, its not hard for anyone to make that claim)

Regards

Mark Pilkington

WELL SAID MARK….good on you mate

It’s good for; Provenance, inspiration, patterns, maybe small parts?????, solving questions about that particular model of P-38, museum display (probably imersed in a fluid) OR as a fish attracting device on a remote beach. Either way it does NOT need a lot of money squandered on it by interlectual types who never spend their own money.

the following was posted on Tighars P38 forum page last October in response to a post and a link detailing local UK activities relating to the wreck

I’m curious, though, where this leaves TIGHAR’s involvement in this aircraft. Is it perhaps time to turn this one over to the government and rededicate available resources?

There was no management response to that post so the following was posted more recently against a background of a stated need to raise $1-3M? for Niku IX.

I’m not sure it’s ethical for TIGHAR to keep accepting donations for a “project” that is now falling under the purview of the local government. Unless there is something going on behind the scenes that we have not been updated about. And even then … this would be a good opportunity to look at how TIGHAR allocates its always too-few resources.

Here is the management response

My apologies for not responding sooner. I’ve been so focused on getting the Forum restructured and the Earhart Master Timeline designed and running that I haven’t looked at this section for several weeks. Because of that, for this one time, I’m going to ignore the insulting assumption behind your question.

TIGHAR remains engaged in the effort to recover and conserve The Maid of Harlech. A UK TIGHAR member is, in fact, the prime mover in saving the aircraft. As Andrew says, protecting the Maid from looters until the stars align is, in part, a regulatory challenge that the CADU grant will help to address but the biggest factor is nature. The aircraft was actually exposed for over a year before the sand returned to hide it, but because we kept our mouths shut the looters never knew about it.
If and when the time comes to mobilize a recovery we’ll be aggressive in our fundraising. For now, the costs of monitoring and advising are minimal and we haven’t been pushing for donations. It has been years since we received a donation earmarked for the Maid, and that’s fine. The things that need to happen next need to happen quietly so forgive me if I do not explain it all to you.

Which is code for:
– A local UK resident found a submerged P38 on the beach in Wales in the UK one day and using google contacted Tighar assuming that they MUST be the International Historic Aircraft Recovery “eggsperts” (despite never having achieved one), a DoD salvage permit was granted
– and nothing was done
– and the DoD salvage permit has expired
– and the local resident is now exploring local funding to recover and display the airframe on the foreshore
– Tighars worst kept secret location is well known to most locals and interested enthusiasts/museum groups, and apparantly visible on either google earth or near maps?
– all of this in a tiny country cram packed with experienced aviation preservation groups, National Collections and volunteer museums which have access to local resources and expertise (that have recovered a submerged 4 engined Halifax Bomber, twin engined Wellington bomber, last surviving Do-17, or dismantled and relocated Shackletons, Vulcans and Airliners around the country)
– and that makes Tighar look frankly just like an inexperienced “2 bit” husband and wife team operating out of the back bedroom of their horse farm but implying inflated capability and expertise under a misleading “International Aircraft Recovery” Name (but having never even attempted one, and all located @3500 miles away in another country!).

(I personally have “recovered” more aircraft (including from overseas) than Tighar has, its not hard for anyone to make that claim)

Regards

Mark Pilkington

It’s good for; Provenance, inspiration, patterns, maybe small parts?????, solving questions about that particular model of P-38, museum display (probably imersed in a fluid) OR as a fish attracting device on a remote beach. Either way it does NOT need a lot of money squandered on it by interlectual types who never spend their own money.

Good grief what a wasted opportunity that is. Is that how it’s going to stay?

Rob

Despite the best of intentions, I fear if the airframe were recovered and placed on display, it might end up rather like the JU87 pulled from the Adriatic sea a few years ago, just a shattered wreck, and continuing to degrade.[ATTACH=CONFIG]242986[/ATTACH]

http://warbirdinformationexchange.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=54175

Excellent

And then we could all watch it fizz away in comfort.

Moggy

Stihl make a very good walkabout cutoff saw that would have it off that beach in under 2 hours.

Sounds about right Propstrike.