Havocs in the UK

My pics of what remained of Z2186 on Carnedd Dafydd in summer 1993. Apologies for the quality – they were taken with my old Boots 226X camera, which was quite astonishingly cr@p!

We only found the one wing section, plus a few bits blown into crevices by the wind, up on the Black Ladders before the cloud started rolling over the ridge and we decided discretion was the better part of valour. So I have no idea what else might have been up there at that date. However it had fairly obviously been turned over by persons unknown, as it had previously rested in a depression.

Adrian

Good man Rob

Thanks for all the pictures guys -have always been a big fan of the A-20…one day We’ll have a Boston at Hendon…… sigh….

TT

One day we’ll have a Boston flying out of Duxford escorted by a squadron of green pigs. 🙂

Sorry Jules, I meant to be interested in your post but I was taken aback badly by the one above!

Did you ever get to fly an A-20, or was it strictly 4-engines from then on? And what was it made you want to fly them?

Adrian

Adrian’

No, I never flew in A20. My superiors assigned me to 4 engine, because of shortage of 4 engine pilots. I remained in B17 and flew 50 combat sorties in them.

[QUOTE=Garry Owen]

“The outer wing sections,inner wing sections with U/C legs,wing center section,both engines,fuselage center section and numerous smaller parts were indeed removed from the site by the now defunct “Boston Havoc Preservation Trust”. They immediately sold one of the outer wing sections for scrap,and later broke up both engines “

This is unreal..and makes you wonder about some of these ” responsible ” recovery operations..

DISGRACEFULL!!

Hi Adrian,

If you can get a copy of the BAAC magazine “Aviation Archaeologist” series two,number twenty five it has the full story according to the “Boston Havoc Preservation Trust”.

It makes me sick just how much has been lost in recent years in the name of “aviation archaeology”,the scrapping of parts from Z2186 is just one example,there are unfortunately many more.

Very recentely some pics surfaced in one of the UK mags about the substantial fuselage of a Boston/Havoc at a remote location in New Foundland IIRC. The fuselage would make a great start for a reconstruction.

Cees

When I graduated flying school in Dec ’42, if the bosses could place you where you wanted to go they would. I asked for A-20 Havoc , however at the time they had a greater need for 4 engine pilots ,so I ended up in B17s

Sorry Jules, I meant to be interested in your post but I was taken aback badly by the one above!

Did you ever get to fly an A-20, or was it strictly 4-engines from then on? And what was it made you want to fly them?

Adrian

Just to add a little info on the subject of the parts from Boston Z2186. The outer wing sections,inner wing sections with U/C legs,wing center section,both engines,fuselage center section and numerous smaller parts were indeed removed from the site by the now defunct “Boston Havoc Preservation Trust”. They immediately sold one of the outer wing sections for scrap,and later broke up both engines 😡

BLOODY HELL!
I must have missed this post when it was fresh – what on earth possessed them to do that? Especially given last months Flypast, with Havoc/Boston remains being imported from Russia. I’m not far off speechless! 😮 😡

Adrian

When I graduated flying school in Dec ’42, if the bosses could place you where you wanted to go they would. I asked for A-20 Havoc , however at the time they had a greater need for 4 engine pilots ,so I ended up in B17s

Z2186

Just to add a little info on the subject of the parts from Boston Z2186. The outer wing sections,inner wing sections with U/C legs,wing center section,both engines,fuselage center section and numerous smaller parts were indeed removed from the site by the now defunct “Boston Havoc Preservation Trust”. They immediately sold one of the outer wing sections for scrap,and later broke up both engines 😡

What remained of Z2186 was recently sold to persons unknown.

The interesting thing is the crash site of Z2186 is on National Trust land and they did not grant permission for anything to be removed from the crash site of Z2186. The crash site had been entered in the National Sites and Monuments Register as a site of historical interest and as far as the NT were concerned the parts were there to stay.

Boston Z2186 is a prime example of a site being cleared for a so called “restoration” only for the parts to be sold off and vanish. It would have been far better for the parts to have remained on the site as a memorial.

OK, OK, it wasn’t very clever, but I took the view that if he chooses not to be known as Richard then he can’t get upset about it. I would be VERY surprised to hear if it does any damage to anyone’s chances of seeing the collection, or I wouldn’t have made the remark.

I apologise if anyone has taken offence at my remark.

Now can we get back to Havocs and Bostons?

Adrian

Thanks for that Adrian……possibly I had a sense-of-humour-ectomy, but in my reaction I was just trying to preserve the guy’s dignity. Over the years I’ve had to cope myself with ribbing over my surname, so I tried to look at it from his point of view. I agree let’s stick to aviation!

Adrian- he has the remains from Carnedd Dafydd.

At last – a man who knows! Thank you David, that is much appreciated! Good job I’ve not gone on another expedition to try to find it up there recently.

I am always split with these things between leaving them up there as a memorial and using them well. In this case someone has already shifted them so I think I can be fairly sure that they are in the hands of someone who will look after them and hopefuly one day they will reappear on a Boston/Havoc.

Just one thought – I wonder what he’s done with the vast quantity of sheep manure that had accumulated in the wing root where they’d sheltered from the weather?

IF – big if – I find the pictures of me leaning on the wing on the mountainside I’ll post them.

Adrian

Adrian- he has the remains from Carnedd Dafydd.

Let’s show a little respect for this guy and his efforts. I don’t think that one contributor to this thread taking the michael out of his name is very clever – it certainly won’t help anyone now wishing to gain access and cooperation to see the collection.

OK, OK, it wasn’t very clever, but I took the view that if he chooses not to be known as Richard then he can’t get upset about it. I would be VERY surprised to hear if it does any damage to anyone’s chances of seeing the collection, or I wouldn’t have made the remark.

I apologise if anyone has taken offence at my remark.

Now can we get back to Havocs and Bostons?

M’sieur Langham, if you do get a look see might it be worth asking Mr Nutts if he knows anything about the remains from Carnedd Dafydd – there are obviously some sizeable chunks of Boston lying around somewhere that have eluded the eyes and ears of the forum. If they are no longer on that hillside as a memorial to the two men that died, then they ought to be put to good use if at all possible IMHO. If he is not the man to do so, perhaps he knows where they are or who could use them?

Adrian

Yeah cheers got it this morning, sorry didn’t get the chance to say thanks, i’ll mention you when i contact him.

Hear hear, i look forward to meeting the guy, still can’t believe theres a Boston just down the road from me, not the sort of thing you expect to turn up around here! Do you think he would mind me having a look round and taking photos?

Rob,

Did you get my email with Dicks details ?

If so, perhaps the words ‘thank you’ could be forthcoming ? :rolleyes:

.

I visited Dick’s restoration project and photographed the material about 5 years ago. I took slides (which are in deep store at present). He is a very knowledgable and highly committed preservationist who has done a considerable amount to secure and restore the compoenents he has. Amongst the material are indeed the items referred to by Setter donated by the Australians. Dick used to have annual open days and took a lot of trouble to allow interested parties to see the material. As it is all stored in a “domestic” environment, the components are not easy to photograph as they are in various locations on site and somewhat cramped in.

Let’s show a little respect for this guy and his efforts. I don’t think that one contributor to this thread taking the michael out of his name is very clever – it certainly won’t help anyone now wishing to gain access and cooperation to see the collection. I also doubt that Dick needs suggestions about what to do with the material he has amassed and is working upon, when he has struggled to achieve what the major UK museums have failed so far to do re this type.

Hear hear, i look forward to meeting the guy, still can’t believe theres a Boston just down the road from me, not the sort of thing you expect to turn up around here! Do you think he would mind me having a look round and taking photos?

Here is the Pima A-20G back in May 2005:

High Consul

Thanks for the very interesting update – I have a more than passing interest in this Australian material and it is very pleasing to me to see someone utilising it for such a good cause.

I am very excited that the Wangaratta stuff is happening but inevitably a lot of that material will be sacrificed to produce an airworthy aircraft (4 Actually) However the project you speak of is a great little grass roots project and is at the core of what we as enthusiasts should be about and support.

I am sure he already knows but if he needs any assistance he should contact Sqn Ldr Dennis Doggett at RAAF Amberley Queensland who successfully led the team that reconstructed both the Boston and Havoc restored here recently as well as the Zero in the AWM and the Point Cook Cat as well – A very helpful and knowledgeable man on aircraft and Boston’s/Havocs.

Kindest regards
John P

I visited Dick’s restoration project and photographed the material about 5 years ago. I took slides (which are in deep store at present). He is a very knowledgable and highly committed preservationist who has done a considerable amount to secure and restore the compoenents he has. Amongst the material are indeed the items referred to by Setter donated by the Australians. Dick used to have annual open days and took a lot of trouble to allow interested parties to see the material. As it is all stored in a “domestic” environment, the components are not easy to photograph as they are in various locations on site and somewhat cramped in.

Let’s show a little respect for this guy and his efforts. I don’t think that one contributor to this thread taking the michael out of his name is very clever – it certainly won’t help anyone now wishing to gain access and cooperation to see the collection. I also doubt that Dick needs suggestions about what to do with the material he has amassed and is working upon, when he has struggled to achieve what the major UK museums have failed so far to do re this type.