He-111 Question

From memory, of 15 years+ ago, I’m sure you’re right.

IIRC, there were references to, for example, He111K Mk5. With hindsight of course, we now know that’s complete gibberish. Makes you wonder how good our intelligence was early in the war.

Ah, the old ‘military intelligence’ oxymoron. Just been reading Stephen Bungay’s ‘The Most Dangerous Enemy’ and he refers to both sides’ information gathering – it seems that though the British were not great at this, the Germans were worse, largely because reports were embellished to tell the high command what they wanted to hear (things like production of Hurricanes was low and not keeping up with demand, only a well-handled Spitfire could outmanoeuvre a Bf110, that sort of thing).

From memory, of 15 years+ ago, I’m sure you’re right.

IIRC, there were references to, for example, He111K Mk5. With hindsight of course, we now know that’s complete gibberish. Makes you wonder how good our intelligence was early in the war.

Thanks for the clarifications all. This makes me wonder if the early encounters with He111s over the North Sea were with one of the E models or similar, as the pilots definitely seemed to think that by March 1940 they were facing a new model – the E had the older nose/cockpit layout and was visibly different from the H. It could also be that they were noticing performance increase. In any case I appear to have misunderstood, when they are referring to the ‘new He111K’ they mean it the same if they were saying ‘the new Bf109’ or ‘the new Spitfire’. The ‘MkV’ or ‘5’ thing is almost certainly an imposition of a British style designation perhaps to prevent aircrews from having to think too much – interesting that the other website referred to uses this designation too.

Several years ago, Aeroplane published a magazine that was basically reprints of Aeroplane, (and Flight, I think) from during WWII. They’re in the deepest bowels of the garage so I can’t check immediately but IIRC it was published exactly 50 years later and was supposed to continue for the duration of the actual unpleasantness.
The War in the Air or similar…

It only ran for a couple of years, and despite subscribing, I still managed to miss one. 🙁

There were a couple of pages in the back where Bill Gunston, with the benefit of hindsight and 50 years’ research, explained some of the apparently strange comments, claims, reports etc.

The He111 was ALWAYS referred to as the K, supposedly standing for Krieg (war) as opposed to the pre-war civil versions.

Acording to Regnat’s book (see my post above) the ‘He111K’ was the designation given in the U.K. to the He111H series, until this was corrected in October 1943. In 1942 the ‘He111K’ was belived to be in service with the Japanese Army Air Force, but powered by two radial engines.

As an aside, in expectation that German aircraft, purchased or built in Japan, would be encountered various German aircraft were given Allied reporting names. The He111 was ‘Bess’, He112 – ‘Jerry’, Fw190 -‘Fred’, Fw200 – ‘Trudy, Ju52 – ‘Trixie’, Ju87 – ‘Irene’, Ju88 – ‘Janice’, Bf109 – ‘Mike’, & Bf110 – ‘Doc’.

Geoff.

He111K

Since the subject seems to have turned to the 111K specifically, a bit of Googling found this previous Key thread (amongst other links): http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=17617 (Daz, you contributed!).

I’d like to point out that the list I posted was ‘verbatim’ so I can’t (or won’t!) be held responsible for errors or omissions! Ergo – dunno why it isn’t on the earlier list either (as XN923 quite rightly pointed out), as it seems pretty well researched to me (but what do I know?!). Another question then – why is that version [the ‘K’] designated the ‘Mark 5 (or V)’. As far as I was aware, the Luftwaffe or any of the German miltary forces in WW2 for that matter, ever designated a specific ‘Mk’ number(?). Please enlighten us someone!

No problemo 😉

I actually was about to post about the Heinkel being a troop-carrier myself…

RAFM Hendon 😉

Sorry

The data on this page apparently relates to the 111K model:

Heinkel 111

But where’s the K?

Interesting. In some research I’ve been doing of late there are frequent references in combat reports early in the war to the ‘He111K’ (sometimes ‘He111 Mk5) and how this is an improvement on the previous model. As there is no ‘K’ on the list provided by cdp206 it makes me wonder where this designation came from… Obviously combat reports are not always (if ever) going to be the most accurate sources, but the pilots seem pretty clear that it is an improved model and that it is designated ‘K’…

(I suppose being ‘sure’ or not didn’t stop pilots claiming to have shot down He112 fighters in the Battle of Britain or American crews sighting Bf109s over Midway, but I’d be interested to hear views on this)

The He 111 at the IWM is a troop carrier one

RAFM Hendon 😉

The He 111 at the IWM is a troop carrier one

So it is possible that there was a version that transported troops, thanks guys that’s interesting.

As to which Red Dwarf episode it was Chris: Byte 7.1 “Stoke me a Clipper” Ace Rimmer dies and Arnold Rimmer has to take over (This is where Chris Barrie left the show for a short stint he later came back in Byte 8 after the Nano’s rebuit the Short Crimson One- as Ace always refered to Red Dwarf).

The He111C & G were the airliner versions of the He111, whilst the He111 H-20 (which is the version displayed at the RAFM Hendon) could be used to carry 4 crew plus 16 soldiers & their equipment, 4 crew & 15 paratroops, or it could operate as a bomber. The He111H-23 was developed from the H-20 & was designed to carry 8 paratroops or 2 supply containers for commando operations, but it’s not clear from my source if this version was actually built.

Re the He111 variants I’d reccomend ‘Heinkel He 111’ by Karl-Heinz Regnat (Black Cross Vol 4) as a good source of technical information.

Geoff.

Thought some were converted for transport use in Norway due to the shortages in Ju52,s and in the Stalingrad pocket.

He-111 variants

Dunno abpuit the Red Dwarf reference – I clearly missed that one (which series was it in?). Anyway. Had a quick trawl (although you may have seen this, but here’s a list of He-111 variants as borrowed from http://www.battleofbritain.net/0017.html which may be a good starting point for ither internet/library searches.

He 111a (He 111 VI): 1st prototype, two 600-hp (448-kW) B.M.W. V16,OZ with two-blade propellers
He 111 V2: 2nd prototype (D-ALIX)
He 111 V3: 3rd prototype (D-ALES)
He 111 V4: 4th prototype (D-AHAO)
He 111C-0: six aircraft (D-ABYE. -AMES. -AQUY. -AQYF-ATYL-AXAV); two delivered to Kommando Rowehl for clandestine reconnaissance
He 111A-1: 10 aircraft based on V3; rejected
He 111 V-5: DB 600A power plant; all-up weight 18,959 lb (8600 kg)
He 111B-0: pre-production version accepted by Luftwaffe: one aircraft with Jumo 21Ga
He 111B-1: production bombers; early aircraft with 08 iOOAa. later 08 60CC; all-up weight 20.536 lb (9323 kg); maximum bombload 3.307 lb (1500 kg)
He 111B-2: supercharged DB 600CG engines, all-up weight increased to 22.048 lb (10000 kg)
He 111 V-7: prototype with straight tapered wing
He 111G-01: also termed He 111 V12 (D-AEQU) B.M.W. VI 6.OZu. passed to DLH
He 111G.02: also termed He 111 V13 (D-AYKI)
He 111G-3: two aircraft V14 (D-ACBS) with B.M.W.132Dc and V15 (D-ADCF) with B.M.W. 132H-1; both passed to DLH and re-styled He 111L
He 111G-4: also termed He111 V16 (D-ASAR); D8 600G; used by Milch as personal transport
He 111G-5: four aircraft with DB 600Ga engines, sold to Turkey
He 111 V-9: modifIed from B-2 airframe with DB 600 Ga; became He 111D prototype with wing radiators
He 111D-0: pre-production batch with DB 600Ga and radiators moved to engine nacelles
He 111D-1: small number of production aircraft. abandoned due to shortage of DB engines
He 111 V-6: prototype (D-AXOH) from modifIed B-0 with Jumo 610 Ga
He 111 V-10: prototype He 111E (D-ALEQ) from modified D-0 with Jumo 211A-114.
He 111 E-0: pro-production aircraft 3.748-lb (11700-kg) bombload; all-up weight 22,740-lb (10315-kg)
He 111 E-1: production bombers. 4.400-lb (12000-kg) bombload all-up weight 23,754 lb (10775 kg)
He 111 E-3: minor intemal alterations. internal bombload only
He 111 E-4: half bombload carried externally
He 111 E-5: as E-4 with extra internal fuel tanks
He 111 V-11: prototype He 111F with straight-tapered wing; Jumo 211A-3 engines
He 111 F-0: pm-production aircraft, all-up weight 24.250 lb (11000 kg)
He 111 F-1: 24 aircraft sold to Turkey in 1938
He 111 F-4: 40 aircraft for Luftwaffe with E-4 bombload
He 111 J-0: pm-production aircraft. 08 EOOCO; extemal bombload only
He 111 J-1: 60 production aircraft intended as torpedo bombers but saved as bombers only
He 111 W: modified 10-ADUOI with stepped cockpit profile
He 111 P-O: pre-production batch similar to V1, following J-1 in factory
He 111 P-1: production 08 601A-1; maximum speed 247 mph (398 km/h)
Good luck! Chris