Heinkel shot by 9mm Luger

Well I’ve heard of another, to start with. It was described in a magazine article some years ago, and concerned a Bf 109E in North Africa. Out of ammo, the pilot went low to buzz some British troops. The officer got irritated, pulled out his trusty .38 revolver and fired a couple of shots. One of them hit the cooling system (IIRC) and the plane was forced down. Both men survived the war and met afterwards – there was a photo of them together in the article, I think.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum

Hi Rlangham,
It’s a great story, isn’t it. And well redone by the Denny crew. However…

The Art historian’s lesson – always add “…that we know of.” to the end of such statements. In a world war with people using dozens of languages and fighting from the arctic to the antarctic regions, I’d be very careful about ‘the only X’ myself! 😀

Hmm, just came across this, apparently only one plane was lost due to pistol fire during the war, seen it on two websites, including this:
http://www.historicaircraftcollection.ltd.uk/cubandstorch/
Very interesting story by the way as well

Anyone got access to the Luftwaffe daily loss/damage reports? I consulted the microfilm copies at the IWM long ago – have they been digitised perhaps?

Whatever, whilst not always accurate, they might id the candidate aircraft.

Fine to know you are sure of what you say. However, hard to read but can be made out doesn’t necessarily fit with exactly as stated. Would it hurt if you let anybody else have a look at it?

No but a: it is not mine and I don’t have it here to photograph and b: I don’t have the time to spend taking the photographs and c: I have read the inscription and it is as stated and so there was no need to take further photos.

It depends on what the facts are as to it’s plausibility…?

Melv’s first post just states May 1940, rather than a specific date, but he does write that the pilot was shot while the aircraft was strafing the troops on the beach at Dunkirk.
That of course would immediately discount Sainte Veronique in Belguim 😉

True but that is the information I was fed, it is quite likely to mean ‘around the time of Dunkirk’ so could be some way from the town itself. It is just my bad interpretation of the story that led me to write ‘on the beach’ (actually with my spelling it was ‘on the neach’!)

German forces occupied Brussels and the surrounding area on 17th May, so if this place is correct, then it’s likely this incident took place on or before this date, i.e between German forces invading Belguim on the 10th May and occupying Brussels on the 17th May.

That could well help considerably. Are there any Luftwaffe experts who could cross reference any suitable losses in this period or is there a website that has this information? As I said before, this is not a period I know much about so hence I passed it onto the open forum.

Hopefully the compass owner will contact the chaps 90-odd year old wife to see if she remembers any more about the place from the visit in 1966.

MH

What’s not plausible about Sainte Veronique in Belgium? Also known as Sint Verone, according to Multimap. Seems plausible enough as a starting point. People are trying to assist here Melvyn.

It depends on what the facts are as to it’s plausibility…?

Melv’s first post just states May 1940, rather than a specific date, but he does write that the pilot was shot while the aircraft was strafing the troops on the beach at Dunkirk.
That of course would immediately discount Sainte Veronique in Belguim 😉

German forces occupied Brussels and the surrounding area on 17th May, so if this place is correct, then it’s likely this incident took place on or before this date, i.e between German forces invading Belguim on the 10th May and occupying Brussels on the 17th May.

Y’know if as much effort had gone into identifying a location that is plausible or a list of losses for that period as has gone into asking questions about the gun and the flap settings we could have cracked this by now!

Without all those gun and flap questions this post may well have fallen into oblivion before anyone ever got to the main topic, and nobody would bother with it. If you know how to solve your problem, you don’t need help. If you’ve asked for help, don’t tell people how they should or should not do so. Perhaps a question that looks silly to you will provide a clue to somebody else.

the engraved information is exactly as stated in the first post. It is hard to read but can be made out. Some of it is visible in the side-on photo.

Fine to know you are sure of what you say. However, hard to read but can be made out doesn’t necessarily fit with exactly as stated. Would it hurt if you let anybody else have a look at it?

What’s not plausible about Sainte Veronique in Belgium? Also known as Sint Verone, according to Multimap. Seems plausible enough as a starting point. People are trying to assist here Melvyn.

I know that Dave, this looks hughly plausible. I’ll check this out.

M

Y’know if as much effort had gone into identifying a location that is plausible or a list of losses for that period as has gone into asking questions about the gun and the flap settings we could have cracked this by now!

What’s not plausible about Sainte Veronique in Belgium? Also known as Sint Verone, according to Multimap. Seems plausible enough as a starting point. People are trying to assist here Melvyn.

😀

My inclination is along the lines of one of your original suggestions, that Ste.Veronique might be a church, as there doesn’t appear to be any town or village by that name. And a church tower would have been an ideal location to got those shots on a slow flying aircraft.
It would nice to hope that Regt. records/war diaries might hold a clue.

I have to say the pilot seems to have shown very little respect for the BEF troops, as it would have been a big risk from any squaddie still having acess to a Bren….. 😉

The person who owns the compass is checking with the late owners widow. She went with him when he returned to the scene in 1966 and so might remember more about it but she is now very old.

MH

Y’know if as much effort had gone into identifying a location that is plausible or a list of losses for that period as has gone into asking questions about the gun and the flap settings we could have cracked this by now!

😀

My inclination is along the lines of one of your original suggestions, that Ste.Veronique might be a church, as there doesn’t appear to be any town or village by that name. And a church tower would have been an ideal location to got those shots on a slow flying aircraft.
It would nice to hope that Regt. records/war diaries might hold a clue.

I have to say the pilot seems to have shown very little respect for the BEF troops, as it would have been a big risk from any squaddie still having acess to a Bren….. 😉

The book “Cockpit Profile #6” shows, that Hs 123 also used the FK 5, Hs 126 the Führertochterkompass but maybe there were also versions using the FK 5. Hard to say by one picture.
Herbert

Perhaps he meant that the ‘Heinkel’ was flying at 15-20 (feet? meters?) with the flaps down?
Perhaps ’17 rounds’ referred to the number of circles the ‘Heinkel’ had done over the troops?
Perhaps you could show us photos of the rest of the original engraved info?

the engraved information is exactly as stated in the first post. It is hard to read but can be made out. Some of it is visible in the side-on photo.

17 rounds is what was fired, without a doubt.

Y’know if as much effort had gone into identifying a location that is plausible or a list of losses for that period as has gone into asking questions about the gun and the flap settings we could have cracked this by now!

Just had a thought.

There is no actual reason to assume it had ANY flap. After all, the guy in question was not, to my knowledge, a pilot and could have been referring to 15-20 degrees of bank angle caused by those flappy things on the ends of the wings.

It is not wise to assume anything in a case like this.

M

Perhaps he meant that the ‘Heinkel’ was flying at 15-20 (feet? meters?) with the flaps down?
Perhaps ’17 rounds’ referred to the number of circles the ‘Heinkel’ had done over the troops?
Perhaps you could show us photos of the rest of the original engraved info?

No – see my previous post. 8 round magazine plus one in the chamber = 9 rounds available, plus spare 8-round mag. That adds up to 17 rounds for two clips fired, which fits the story.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum

Sorry Tony you’ve caught me out again I’d totally forgotten that the Luger and P38 both had 8 round mags. Anorak!! 😀

The Heschel Hs-126 was a Army Co op aircraft used in France. A parasol monoplane, it looks (from pics) like it’s got flaps, and a partially open cockpit. It would have been bothering troops, though indirectly, and as an aircraft to be brought down by planned ground fire would be the most likely German type. He111 weren’t much for ground strafing IMHO, and other Heinkels are very unlikely to have been seen.

‘Ave you arksed zee fronch, monsuer Issceck? Zey are meur laklee too knew. 😀

Here’s another thought – perhaps the aircraft went into a spin, and spun 15 to 20 times before it hit the deck? He may not have been referring to a mechanical part of the plane but an action, “flapping” like a bird being his best vinacular to describe such an action? Just another crazy Dave thought…

Just had a thought.

There is no actual reason to assume it had ANY flap. After all, the guy in question was not, to my knowledge, a pilot and could have been referring to 15-20 degrees of bank angle caused by those flappy things on the ends of the wings.

It is not wise to assume anything in a case like this.

M

Not doing to well here! :rolleyes:

Ohh, dunno, not bad for a thin bloke.

Originally I thought it might be an Henschel 123 but then my knowledge of ground attack fighters of that era is sadly limited to those that airfix made models of in the early 1970s.

Anyone got any more ideas?