Helmut Wick's 3 Spitfires 5/11/40

Thread closed.

Relax Kev

I have just been messaged to the effect that Maverik will no longer be gracing this forum with his presence.

Moggy
Moderator

Maverik.

It is not a puzzle at all. It just didn’t happen.

Regards,

kev35

Not at all. I want you to produce evidence to prove that Wick shot down three Spitfires other than the simple fact he said he did. I have tried to provide evidence to support the fact that no Spitfires were lost that day. Norman Franks (through Fighter Command Losses) and Andy Saunders have provided evidence that no spitfires were lost. All you keep saying is that because Wick claimed them that is the absolute truth and he MUST have shot them down when clearly he didn’t.

regards,

kev35

I know that But Who comfirmed them’ that’s who. who”
no small puzzle is it.who”comfirmed them for him.
tell you what you go and talk behind my back.and try and get at me.
thats what cyber bullys do.your avitar says a lot.
no more please.please.
thank you
terry
terry

troll what me you have been having a go at me all week…
what do you want me to say’ok we lost no spitfires on 6/11/40
cheers

Not at all. I want you to produce evidence to prove that Wick shot down three Spitfires other than the simple fact he said he did. I have tried to provide evidence to support the fact that no Spitfires were lost that day. Norman Franks (through Fighter Command Losses) and Andy Saunders have provided evidence that no spitfires were lost. All you keep saying is that because Wick claimed them that is the absolute truth and he MUST have shot them down when clearly he didn’t.

regards,

kev35

Is anyone else beginning to consider that Maverik61 is in fact nothing more than a troll?

Regards,

kev35

troll what me you have been having a go at me all week…
what do you want me to say’ok we lost no spitfires on 6/11/40
cheers

Is anyone else beginning to consider that Maverik61 is in fact nothing more than a troll?

Regards,

kev35

I’m guessing English isn’t your first language from your writing, as it’s not easy to understand exactly what you’re getting at?

My take on it is, from Wick’s personality it’s clear he was very much determined to be ‘top dog’ in scoring terms (perhaps by any means), and was desperately trying to catch Molders and Galland.
Molders had ‘claimed’ his 50th on 22nd October, and Galland his 50th on 30th October, so, given these timescales, it’s likely that Wick’s wingman and other’s in his flight may well have ‘supported’ his ‘5 x claims’ on the 6th which would take him to 52, and closer to highest scorer status, but which would perhaps be classed only as a ‘probable’ or ‘damaged’ in RAF claim terminology.

well I cant tell from your lanaguage ”call a kettle a kettle.
chow

I agree.But what or by who creditit them. ‘Herman Goring.little pun”’
no seriously’ wick must have Had some kind of wittness.
as by the other guy above (wicks combat statement)) says we ”WICK;; we Dived Down on them’ so more than One plane followed wick.
terry

I’m guessing English isn’t your first language from your writing, as it’s not easy to understand exactly what you’re getting at?

My take on it is, from Wick’s personality it’s clear he was very much determined to be ‘top dog’ in scoring terms (perhaps by any means), and was desperately trying to catch Molders and Galland.
Molders had ‘claimed’ his 50th on 22nd October, and Galland his 50th on 30th October, so, given these timescales, it’s likely that Wick’s wingman and other’s in his flight may well have ‘supported’ his ‘5 x claims’ on the 6th which would take him to 52, and closer to highest scorer status, but which would perhaps be classed only as a ‘probable’ or ‘damaged’ in RAF claim terminology.

Maverik.

I ask once more, tell me the identities of the three mysterious Spitfires that fell to Wick’s guns? Your assertion all the way through this is that Wick shot down three Spitfires on the 6/11/40, but the only evidence you have is the simple fact that he claimed them. Give more evidence. Identify anywhere else there is record of these three missing Spitfires. You won’t. For the simple reason that you can’t. The even simpler truth being that it never happened. At best, he is guilty of misidentifying aircraft he attacked, is guilty of mistakenly claiming a kill when the most he might have done was damaged the aircraft. Everything happened very fast in combat. Fleeting glimpses of aircraft in front of you. A split second moment in which to identify your prey before opening fire. The obvious tactic when attacked from behind was to escape by diving. Did Wick say in that passage that he had seen all three Spitfires crash? No, he didn’t. He said he saw one crash into the sea and that is clearly wrong as no Spitfires were lost.

You can keep taking it around in circles but you won’t find the mythical missing Spitfires for the simple reason it never happened. And you won’t provide evidence to prove that it did.

Regards,

kev35

So, it would seem Wick’s total score should really be reduced by 4 on this evidence at least……:confused:

..I don’t think you’re wrong,..but like Hartmann’s ridiculous 352, can’t see it happening! Andy probably already said it, but JG 2 appear to have overclaimed more than most…

My guess would be……

The 213 and 238 Sqn Hurricanes are the two claims of Sigi Schnell and Assi Hahn, with the two 145 Sqn Hurricanes being half shares between Eric Leie and Helmut Wick as the times are the same for two pairs of Hurricanes.

As for the three Spits…..well, if Spits were in that combat, clearly they were only damaged.

So, it would seem Wick’s total score should really be reduced by 4 on this evidence at least……:confused:

I agree.But what or by who creditit them. ‘Herman Goring.little pun”’
no seriously’ wick must have Had some kind of wittness.
as by the other guy above (wicks combat statement)) says we ”WICK;; we Dived Down on them’ so more than One plane followed wick.
terry

..Albacore..Swordfish ??!!

Wick downed at least one Mureaux 115 (IIRC) during the French campaign – according to his own account, he was so “ashamed” of shooting down this type that he never filed claims..

Hello’
A new one on me thank you’ Iwill have to get that Book.a french plane.
so thats 2 french he shot at.cheers’ ((I want to shout but think its Rude and with smileys. well thats Daft.))
have you ever considered bein a author.
you know more than them.
cheers
terry.

My guess would be……

The 213 and 238 Sqn Hurricanes are the two claims of Sigi Schnell and Assi Hahn, with the two 145 Sqn Hurricanes being half shares between Eric Leie and Helmut Wick as the times are the same for two pairs of Hurricanes.

As for the three Spits…..well, if Spits were in that combat, clearly they were only damaged.

So, it would seem Wick’s total score should really be reduced by 4 on this evidence at least……:confused:

..Albacore..Swordfish ??!!

Wick downed at least one Mureaux 115 (IIRC) during the French campaign – according to his own account, he was so “ashamed” of shooting down this type that he never filed claims..

Well, if they were not Spitfires, nor Hurricanes, nor even Me109s, then the three mysterious aircraft claimed by Wick must have been misidentified Heinkel He113s.

This will not end well.

Victory claims 6 November 1940

Lt. Siegfried Schnell 4./JG 2 Hurricane E. of Southampton 13h40 19th
Oblt. Erich Leie Stab/JG 2 Hurricane Southampton 15h35 6th
Major Helmut Wick Stab/JG 2 Hurricane Southampton 15h35 48th
Oblt. Erich Leie Stab/JG 2 Hurricane Southampton 15h37 7th
Major Helmut Wick Stab/JG 2 Hurricane Southampton 15h37 49th
Major Helmut Wick Stab/JG 2 Spitfire E. of the Isle of Wight 15h45 50th
Major Helmut Wick Stab/JG 2 Spitfire E. of the Isle of Wight 15h46 51st
Major Helmut Wick Stab/JG 2 Spitfire E. of the Isle of Wight 15h48 52nd
Oblt. Hans Hahn Stab III./JG 2 Hurricane E. of Southampton 15h55 22nd

Interesting to compare this claims list with the know RAF losses for the same day as posted earlier………;)

145 Squadron Hurricane I P/O J K Haire. V6627. Killed. Patrol. Shot down over the Isle of Wight – baled out too low, pm.

145 Squadron Hurricane I Sgt J Weber. Serial unknown. Safe. Patrol. Baled out after attack by Me109 over the Isle of Wight, PM.

213 Squadron Hurricane I Sgt H M Adair. V7602. Killed Patrol. Shot down over Portsmouth by Me109, pm.

238 Squadron Hurricane I P/O J Tillett. V6814. Killed. Patrol. shot down by Me109 over Fareham, pm.

This is just getting silly now. Maverik previously mentioned Swordfishes but now says they were Albacores after editing his earlier post to remove any mention of Swordfish.

The total claims for the day (6/11/40) were nine aircraft, but only four Hurricanes were lost. Now, as Maverick is telling us that there is a cover up over the loss of three Spitfires that day, there must also be a cover up of the loss of two further Hurricanes. As Maverik states that Luftwaffe claims had to be witnessed, what possible conclusions does that leave us?

That the RAF and British Government covered up the loss of three Spitfires and, if we are to believe Maverik, two Hurricanes as well?

That records were falsified to disprove Wick’s claims?

That the Commonwealth War Graves Commission are party to the cover up by not commemorating those who died as a result of Wick’s claims?

That the families of those who died are also party to the cover up?

From the passage that FalkeEins quoted, Wick states that he saw two of the Spitfires go down. Down where? Did he see them crash? He doesn’t say so there is no proof there. Of the Spitfire he saw go into the sea with a wounded or dead pilot aboard, well, I say again to the deaf amongst us, THERE WERE NO SPITFIRES LOST!!!!!

Maverik, you were the one who started this thread taking Wick’s word as Gospel. I suggest the onus is on you to prove Wick’s claims to be true. Tell me which Spitfire Squadron or Squadrons were involved, give me their serials and the names of their pilots. I’ve given you the names of the Hurricane pilots lost that day, confirmed by Andy. I’ve given you the serials and the locations. If you want I’ll even find you the details of all 34 RAF personnel who died on that day. What do you offer as evidence to support your case? Nothing other than the fact that Wick claimed three Spitfires so it MUST be true.

Over to you, I look forward to your ‘answers.’

Regards,

kev35

if anyone is still interested, here’s my translation of Wick’s subsequent recounting of the day’s events ..just published in Erik Mombeek’s new history of JG 2…

“ It is difficult to describe exactly what happened during the afternoon of 6 November. Perhaps I wasn’t on top form or my nerves let me down? After downing my second English victim I had one thought uppermost in my mind and that was to return home. I had enough fuel for several more minutes yet but I’d had enough for one day. In any case we were almost at the point where we’d have to fly home anyway. As luck would have it, just as we had formed up and swept into a turn that would take us home, I saw three Spitfires below us. They were apparently returning from a patrol over the sea. I spotted them first – before they’d seen us. We fell on them like a flash and the first one went down. Nothing for it but to clench my teeth and get into a position on the tail of a second who also went down after several rapid bursts of fire. There was still one left. By now my cannon were out of rounds so I had closed on this one firing from my machine guns only. A plume of white smoke appeared in an instant, an indicator that his engine was about to catch fire. I got the impression that I must have hit the pilot since he appeared to lose control – flying erratic manoeuvres for brief seconds – before levelling out. I gave him another burst. The Spitfire then tipped over one wing and plunged down into the sea. By now it really was time to high tail it home. Arriving back over the field I thought it prudent to avoid five passes waggling my wings since I was so low on fuel that the engine could have seized at any time. Climbing down from the cockpit I was greeted by my comrades with much hugging and back-slapping..”

Victory claims 6 November 1940

Lt. Siegfried Schnell 4./JG 2 Hurricane E. of Southampton 13h40 19th
Oblt. Erich Leie Stab/JG 2 Hurricane Southampton 15h35 6th
Major Helmut Wick Stab/JG 2 Hurricane Southampton 15h35 48th
Oblt. Erich Leie Stab/JG 2 Hurricane Southampton 15h37 7th
Major Helmut Wick Stab/JG 2 Hurricane Southampton 15h37 49th
Major Helmut Wick Stab/JG 2 Spitfire E. of the Isle of Wight 15h45 50th
Major Helmut Wick Stab/JG 2 Spitfire E. of the Isle of Wight 15h46 51st
Major Helmut Wick Stab/JG 2 Spitfire E. of the Isle of Wight 15h48 52nd
Oblt. Hans Hahn Stab III./JG 2 Hurricane E. of Southampton 15h55 22nd

Hello.
at last. a decent answer’
thank you very much that’s best info ever . i’ll get the Book”
cheer”’s
terry.