Help please: 137 Sqdn Combat loss & French/German files

Thanks Stuart

Likewise!

Paul

Hi Paul, can’t help I’m afraid, but interested in finding out what German/French Departments you will need to contact for WWII crashed allied aircraft…

Stuart

Just a gentle bump in the hope that someone can help with my request. TIA

Paul

Hi Paul, can’t help I’m afraid, but interested in finding out what German/French Departments you will need to contact for WWII crashed allied aircraft…

Stuart

You may find some independent researc has been done on Google.fr There were no French records kept at that time, everything had been under German control and a lot of informastion hastily burnt at the end of WWII. The only hope is to find an indepedent over in France, who Is thinking along the same lines as yourself…..

The German / French originals are not in the Australian file, which has been digitised and is available online. The link I’m looking at is:

http://naa12.naa.gov.au/scripts/ITEMS_LISTING.ASP?S=4&C=180&F=1&O=4&target=

That may not get you there though; post here if not. Basic approach is to start at

www.naa.gov.au

Click on search records as a guest, input Musgrave into the keywords box which appears, select date range (I went with 1940-1950), click the “Digitised Images First” button which appears on the results page, should be second file. When the file is open, be sure to click the “Enlarge” button, or the text will be too small.

Correspondence is the standard sad stuff: regret to inform you, sign for personal effects, picture of cross on grave.

I’ve not found any information that you don’t already have.

There’s a note here:

http://www.wlb-stuttgart.de/seekrieg/43-05.htm

that a Hampden of 145 Squadron sank minesweeper M345 off Gravelines on the 18th, but no more information re: the convoy attacked.

Paul,

You could trying copying your request to the RAF Commands Forum at

http://www.rafcommands.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=1&order=desc

It has a number of contributors based in France/Belgium and Holland who might well be able to help. Obviously you need to register first.

Edit: You could also obtain his records from the Australian National Archives – someone at RAFC will point you in the right direction.

Brian

No worries – there is an email address at the Stuttgart site, they specifically say they’re OK with questions:

[email]weis@wlb-stuttgart.de[/email]

Thank you both for your help – it is much appreciated.

Paul

I”m beginning to wonder whether it wasn’t your man who accounted for the minesweeper.

The German site says a 145 Squadron Hampden did the deed, however 145 were on Spits in the Med at the time. 415 Squadron RCAF on the other hand did have Hampdens, but on the night of 17/18 May 1943 they were active against a convoy off Borkum, at the northern end of the Dutch Islands (they lost two aircraft but seem to have scored some hits as well). I can’t see that they’d split the effort and send aircraft to Gravelines as well.

http://www.imagecontrol.com.au/oldcmp/KCW.html

Edit – the attack is also described here: http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dhh-dhp/his/docs/RCAF_Overseas_vol1_e.pdf (Search on Demons.) The entire effort was at Borkum, so they can’t have been responsible for the sinking of M345 at Gravelines.

Edit – your ORB stuff confirms there was only one Whirlie sent to Gravelines that night. Tony Woods’ file for Fighter Command in 1943 (http://www.lesbutler.ip3.co.uk/tony/allied_1943_issue_I_doc.zip) doesn’t mention any additional effort for 18 May at Gravelines, though he tends to mention only claims & casualties. I don’t have Foreman’s Fighter Command War Diaries for May ’43, maybe someone here can track it down.

The Bomber Command War diary mentions some minelaying at La Pallice that night, but nothing specifically targeted at Gravelines.

Ross McNeill over at the RAF Commands Forum may be able to tell you for whether there was any CC activity at Gravelines on the 18th.

So, I dunno for sure, but in your position I’d have a look at Foreman to see if there was a follow-up at Gravelines. If not, the Minesweeper might be the thing.

In either case, contact the fellows at Stuttgart – their page seems to be a summary, so perhaps they have more details on the loss of M345 which might help. They might also appreciate some “re-direction” on the 145 Squadron Hampdens thing: it was 415 Squadron Hampdens, and at Borkum, not Gravelines.

Hi mhuxt

You’ve raised some very interesting points! For which I’m most grateful.

Using Google Maps gave the following:
La Pallice is near La Rochelle, between Nantes and Bordeaux – well to the SW and away from Gravelines.
Borkum is significantly to the north of Gravelines, so you may well be correct in saying that M345 was sunk by Eddie early that morning.

I also found that, according to:
http://www.german-navy.de/kriegsmarine/ships/minehunter/mboot40/ships.html
the wreck of M-345 is located at 53,34,88N/06,02,09E. This places it off Borkum and would have it fit better with 415’s Hampdens operations that night.

So it is obvious that more digging is required. Firstly to confirm the co-ordinates of M345. If indeed it was lost off Gravelines then it may well have been sunk by Eddie. According to the ORB whatever he attacked he felt was worth attacking a second time. Depending upon the weather a waxing gibbous moon would have been in the SW sky at an altitude of 21 degrees – good conditions for the op he was on.

Thanks once again for your help and the incentive it has provided!

Paul

Hiya,

No worries. I get the impression that most information about the Whens and Wheres of the Kriegsmarine can be found in the “Kriegstagebuch der Seekriegsleitung” – Naval Command War Diary. There’s 89 volumes of the thing, so you’re probably going to have to look at the National Archives or a Uni library somewhere.

Strange about the M345 being at Borkum though, as that would have meant the Canadians scored five hits on the convoy near the Dutch Islands, and they don’t appear to have claimed that many. I wonder if the Stuttgart site has switched the position of one of the Vorpostenboote?

I post on a German-language Luftwaffe forum. Do you mind if I ask over there about equivalent Kriegsmarine sites that might have more info?

Not at all – every little bit helps.

Thanks for the offer.

Paul

OK, will do.

Will post anything new I find here. In this case, no news is, well, no news.

Hi Paul
Musgrave was by no means the only Whirlwind pilot attacking ships near Gravelines that night:

De Houx 2315-0005, minesweepers and barges off Mardyck (bombed and made cannon attack on one of the minesweepers, claimed as Cat 3)

Sutherland, 2345-0045, same target (bombed barges)(Sortie not recorded in Manston ORB)

Witham, 0020-0115, same target (bombed one of the minesweepers, claimed as Cat 4)

Bryan, 0040-0130, 3 minesweepers, 4 miles NE Gravelines (bombed one and then made cannon attack)

Musgrave 0110- FTR, “to attack shipping in the Gravelines area”, last plotted at 0132 by CHL, reported to Swingate control that he was making a second attack with cannon. Manston ORB has time up as 0100 rather than 0110

Brunet 0135-0215, 7 boats leaving Gravelines (bombed one, leaving it stationary and listing sharply to port, claims one E or R boat Cat2)

De Houx (again) 0150-0235, 4 minesweepers 0.5 miles off Gravelines (bombs one and claims it Cat 3)

Sutherland (again) 0210-0255, shipping near Gravelines, recalled on way out.

There were also two 137 Squadron attacks on shipping targets further east, off Nieuwpoort

In the Manston ORB there is a note about Sutherland’s second sortie: “At 0220 when off the Goodwins saw the sea very disrupted and a long stream of oil which he thought to be a crashed aircraft. it is just possible that this may have been Musgrave but very unlikely owing to the time between the two”.

So, in total we have what looks like 7 separate attacks on what may well have been the same target (or group of targets)between say approx 2340 (de Houx) and approx 0215 (de Houx again) all of which reported doing some damage.

I have some notes from a German enthusiast, sadly no longer with us, whose main interest was German nightfighter ops and who, in exchange for copies of Bomber Command material from Kew for his researches, would see what he could find in the German archives relating to some of my odd queries (including this one). His note indicates that M.345 was lost off Gravelines, at around 0010 hrs with six casualties (unclear whether casualties = killed, or killed plus injured). I’ve always believed he got this from the 28. Minensuchflottille KTB.

If the timing is correct then the first attack by de Houx is perhaps a better fit than Musgrave’s attack around 90 minutes later.

Hope this helps

Niall

Thanks Niall

This information will prove most useful. Do you know where I might be able to get a copy of 28. Minensuchflottille KTB for this night? I’ve recently finished translating a section of 24. Minensuchflottille KTB for one of 263 squadron’s operations.

Paul