Help please. Recent TV documentary in UK.

The ‘convenient’ loss of papers within the Australian awards system, depriving him of the medal he so clearly deserves, as justified by the US representations, is worrying.

NOT a comment on the particular case, but some context.

Up until about 10 years ago, the Australian awards system was the British one, and passed through British endorsement. As an independent country, this is not a desirable state of affairs, and so the Australian government created an Australian awards system, civil and military, thus stopping an historical anachronism.

The Vietnam war causes a double problem for the many Australian veterans and much understandable bitterness. Not part of the US system, as Mark 12’s said, they often do not receive US recognition, for several reasons.

As Britain did not fight in Vietnam there is remarkably little understanding in the British ‘corridors of power’ of the Australian role and history, causing the type of problem outlined.

Finally, politicians and the military are always reluctant at best to go back to review decisions under a previous system or just seen as ‘difficult’. Although the Vietnam war’s veterans are much more recognised in Australia than they were, it remains a controversial subject politically. Making a retrospective new Australian award now to a Vietnam vet would cause the politicians problems; and we know how good they are at sliding out from under.

The new Australian version of the VC for Australian service people has yet to be awarded, I understand.

Australian Military Awards

JohnathonF

Well actually, if I recall correctly, salaried Government officers.

I am assuming you did not see the programme?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/this_world/4758847.stm

Thanks for the links Paul.

Mark

I didn’t, but I was aware of their “activities”. Their government credentials are, to me, palpably worthless if they claim to be psychic. Psychics here in the UK frequently claim to have worked with such-&-such Constabulary, but more often than not these claims are at least exaggerated, if not entirely fabricated. But even the UK police are just people, and are sometimes susceptible to phenenomena like subjective validation and communal reinforcement which boil down to “he/she can’t have known that!”. In reality, they are remembering the lucky “hits” of one or more cheap parlour tricks.

And without wishing to appear condescending to other cultures, you must realise that people of countries like Vietnam are far more likely to have the kind of deep-seated beliefs and superstitions that might support and propogate use of self-proclaimed “psychics” by those in authority, who may even believe or be susceptible themselves. The reported statement that they are “Accepted, if not approved of, by the government” suggests that the government knows what’s good for it, and won’t risk challenging the established belief systems of its people, no matter how poorly founded and dangerous they might be. It lends them authority, sure, but only the level of authority carried by their “reluctant” paymasters, the Vietnamese government – not known for their patronage of (truly) scientific work.

Sorry if I appear to sabotage your thread; no doubt the programme content is of interest and value in various ways. I just question this wholly anecdotal evidence for such a phenomenon. If these psychics can really do this, let’s see some double-blind controlled testing of their “abilities”. If they can pass a simple test, they can win a million dollars.

[edited to add] Let’s not forget that if this is indeed the work of con-artists (whether they act knowingly or not) then it is hugely inappropriate and disrespectful, and misleading and hurtful to their loved ones.

What’s the story with the helmet???

AJ,

I have known Garry Cooper for over 30 years, in fact from when he sprung a Mk XIV Spitfire from Thailand – RM797.

Although I would meet with him on regular occasions, as he traversed the world as a 747 or whatever Captain, he never talked in any depth about his Vietnam service with the RAAF. I was therefore quite stunned about 20 year ago to read one day on the front of my Sunday Times – ” Will Cooper get the VC”. The Americans cannot give him the Medal of Honour as he is not a US Citizen. They have pressed and continue to press the Australians to recognise his gallantry on one particular mission. On this occasion, flying passenger in a Hiller ‘Raven’ helicopter, that bullet passed through his helmet missing his head by 5mm, killed the the central positioned pilot and wounded a senior officer passenger on the other side of the pilot. The aircraft crashed but Garry was able to soften the impact. They were in no mans land about 200 metres from the enemy. Garry assisted the injured officer to safer ground where they were under fire throughout the night an into the next day. Expending all his ammunition and killing a number of enemy they were finally rescued by helicopter but not before he took out two further enemy with the butt of his weapon.

I was with him Australia just recently and took the photo of his helmet in his study. He has just written his side of the events. The ‘convenient’ loss of papers within the Australian awards system, depriving him of the medal he so clearly deserves, as justified by the US representations, is worrying.

This is not a plug for his book. I picked it up and couldn’t put it down and as he said to me by email today :-

“It was probably due to the invisible glue I had the publishers put on the cover!”

Here is the press release minus all the commercial bits.

If the Vietnam theatre is your thing, I commend this book to you.

Mark

SOCK IT TO ‘EM, BABY
Forward Air Controller in Vietnam

Garry Cooper and Robert Hillier

Garry Cooper is something of a legend in Australian military circles and is well-known to many Americans who served in Vietnam. A natural and brilliant pilot with a determination for perfection, he expects only perfection from himself. Conflict arose many times through his career when he did not experience perfection from the bureaucracy to which he was subjected. Now Robert Hillier tells Garry’s tour of Vietnam story in full, hoping to earn him the recognition he deserves in his own country.

Garry arrived in Vietnam in 1968, just after the Tet Offensive, and was posted to the US Army 9th Infantry Division as a forward air controller. His job was to fly at a low level in a small and slow plane, above enemy forces, to direct American artillery and aircraft to assist these forces. This was extremely dangerous work with a consequent high fatality rate, but he approached his assignments in a devoted and determined manner and soon became named a ‘legend’ by his American peers.

General Julian J Ewell, the Commander of the 9th Infantry Division, and author of the forward for Sock it to ‘Em Baby, recommended Cooper for the Medal of Honour and the Distinguished Service Cross, the United State’s highest awards. Unfortunately Australia was not allowing its personnel to receive US Awards during the Vietnam Conflict, and although Australia policy has since changed, the Australian government is still preventing Cooper from receiving these high profile awards.

The US however, for other actions and without reference to the Australian Government, has awarded Cooper the Silver Star, DFC, Bronze Star, Purple Heart, Air Medal and Army Commendation Medal. The Vietnamese government awarded Cooper their Cross of Gallantry with Silver Star and the Honour Medal 1st Class.

Today, Cooper lives in retirement in Queensland, and has been made an honoury member of the various US Army units by the men who lives he saved. Sock it to ‘Em, Baby is the life story of this hero and colourful character.

Robert Hillier served in the Royal Australian Navy during the Vietnam War. He has also worked as an engineer, and at the Stock Exchange in Melbourne. Robert resides in Victoria and is presently the treasurer of the Central Highlands Sub-branch of the Vietnam Veterans Association of Australia.

Well done Paul – I obsessed with this and have been lookng all morning ! 😡

Likewise… Especially as I’d seen the very end of it!

I notice you can “watch it now” on the BBC 2 web site

as you exceed your monthly download quota all in one go…….

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/this_world/default.stm

I would call people that are able to show you where war dead are buried “locals”, not “psychics”. Or perhaps in this case, “con-artists”.

JohnathonF

Well actually, if I recall correctly, salaried Government officers.

I am assuming you did not see the programme?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/this_world/4758847.stm

Thanks for the links Paul.

Mark

I would call people that are able to show you where war dead are buried “locals”, not “psychics”. Or perhaps in this case, “con-artists”.

Well done Paul – I obsessed with this and have been lookng all morning ! 😡

Google

“This World” BBC2 Vietnam

for more info

Thanks to Google Cache

BBC2 Thursday 18 May 9:00 pm This World

Psychic Vietnam: Families in Vietnam are turning to government supported psychics in their search for lost ones 30 years after the war that claimed 300,000 lives.

I know the programme you are on about and I am damned if I can remember it. It was on BBC2 last week.
I’ll see what I can find out.

PS.
Seriously….

Paranormal… Sounds likes something Channel 5 would put out!

Are you sure it was on terrestrial UK TV

and not on the SAGA TV channel ??

😉

Andymac

The programme I am looking for was locating the lost bodies of North Vietnamese soldiers. They showed several cases using para-normal and psychic processes by mediums and it appeared to be successful.

The programme I am looking for was not looking for US soldiers/airmen.

It was shown on terrestrial UK TV within the last two weeks.

..thanks.

Mark

Hello – it was a ‘Timewatch’ episode, and it was on again last Tuesday on one of the Sky channels for a second time ! I’m waiting for a repeat of the epsiode about a Templar Castle during the last Crusade, as yet to no avail 🙁

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/programmes/timewatch/index.shtml

This link may be of no help whatsoever !

Andy.