Help req'd with Mossie Crash

Brian,

Noted….I stand corrected. My usual line of research is the USAAF and they often used KIAc to mean Killed in Action – Crashed, hence my use of terminology.

Thought the forum would like to see what was left of one of the engines…photo was sent to me recently…

Shabby
www.55th.org
www.station131.co.uk

btw. Moggy – I think you are correct, but occasionally a grain of truth exists…it’s worth investigating…

One small point Russ, and I’m not trying to be pedantic, but since the accident occurred during a test flight the crew would have been considered to have been ‘Killed on active service’, not ‘Killed in action’. The distiction between the two can be found in the Times digital archive:

Times, 1 Feb 1943 (referring to RAF casualties):

‘Casualties “in action” are due to flying operations against the enemy; “on active service” includes ground casualties due to enemy action, non-operational flying casualties, fatal accidents, and natural deaths.’

There are many instances in which airecrew have died whilst flying operationally, the meteorological reconnaissance squadrons being good examples, but since they were not conducting an operation against the enemy their deaths are considered the same as someone dying from a heart attack.

Brian

2 nights ago I stumbled on this site while doing research with my father on his brother. His brother, my uncle, is NZ42446 Plt Off Raymond George Cuthbert Payne.
We always had been told that Ray and his Navigator had crashed while doing night flying training as per the official record. This comes as quite a surprise, especially to Dad. I would appreciate any further information on this.
Cheers John

John,

I have since established that 1430 was actually the take off time, the aircraft crashing at 1446. The Court of Inquiry noted that this was the second Mosquito to disintegrate in mid-air within two days.

You have probably been misled by the term ‘Night flying test’. This was a short flight carried out preparatory to a nighttime operational sortie, it being better to discover any bugs in the system in daylight while over friendly territory than in the dark while inhospitable folk are shooting at you.

You may not be aware that you can also request a photocopy of the surviving papers on your uncle’s RNZAF service record. You may have to wait for a month or two for the response but the there is no charge for a single annual request. Go here for details:
http://www.nzdf.mil.nz/personnel-records/archive-enquiries.htm

Errol

Go to the forum at www.mossie.org

I am sure the local experts will be able to assist with this.

Bruce

It is always possible that the ‘top-secret testing’ is a myth.

An interesting thread with surprising developments.

Welcome John 🙂

Moggy

2 nights ago I stumbled on this site while doing research with my father on his brother. His brother, my uncle, is NZ42446 Plt Off Raymond George Cuthbert Payne.
We always had been told that Ray and his Navigator had crashed while doing night flying training as per the official record. This comes as quite a surprise, especially to Dad. I would appreciate any further information on this.
Cheers John

I am sorry but I cannot help you, the crash I referred to was HX907 crew F/O Coleman and F/O Brinn. I got my information from Mike Packham Mosquito aircraft museum, good luck.

2 nights ago I stumbled on this site while doing research with my father on his brother. His brother, my uncle, is NZ42446 Plt Off Raymond George Cuthbert Payne.
We always had been told that Ray and his Navigator had crashed while doing night flying training as per the official record. This comes as quite a surprise, especially to Dad. I would appreciate any further information on this.
Cheers John

www.mossie.org helped me in a similar query, they not only gave the names of the crew but also the engine nos on the aircraft. good luck.

Cheers Alan,

I’d better get on to Hendon and see if they’ve got a copy of the Air Ministry Form.

Thanks to all who have helped solve the mystery…appreciated.

Russ

www.station131.co.uk
www.55th.org

Russ

The only reports / record cards you should be able to get hold for this aircraft are the Air Ministry Form 1180 and AM F-412 or F-765c the 1180 can be ordered from Hendon but the other two (if they still exist) would be with AHB at Bentley Priory. If there was a full investigation the report is now lost, along with all the accident reports for RAF aircraft from the end of Jan 44 through to the end of Dec 44, the PRO either lost or were never given reports numbered W1751 to W2080 which covers pretty much all of 1944.

If you get the 1180 it should show if there was a full investigation on the left hand side of the first sheet where file numbers are recorded for 765c and AIB reports (the ones lost by someone).

Alan

I am currently researching the names of all ground and aircrew who lost their lives flying from Hunsdon.
The names will be included on the Memorial we are building on Hunsdon airfield.

Jeff,

Snap!

Errol

Cheers Errol and Jeff…very much appreciated. Almost there with this investigation.

Here’s a question to all….how do I go about getting a copy of this crash report? I have plenty of USAAF ones, but wouldn’t know where to begin in this country (UK).

also….how do I go about contacting a 487 Squadron association (if one exists?). I’m determined to have these guys’ remembered and commemorated at Station 131.

Russ
www.station131.co.uk
www.55th.org

Russ,

Excerpt from my trilogy ‘For Your Tomorrow – A record of New Zealanders who have died while serving with the RNZAF and Allied Air Services since 1915’ (Volume Two: Fates 1943-1998):-

Thu 24 Feb 1944
ALLIED EXPEDITIONARY AIR FORCE
Night flying test
487 Squadron, RNZAF (Hunsdon, Hertfordshire – 140 Airfield HQ, 2 Group, 2nd Tactical Air Force)
Mosquito FB.VI LR343 – broke-up in the air and crashed 2 miles north of Nuthampstead, 13 miles north of Hunsdon at 1430. The two crew are buried at Brookwood, Woking, Surrey.
Pilot: NZ42446 Plt Off Raymond George Cuthbert PAYNE, RNZAF – Age 27. 448hrs. 12 ops.
Navigator: NZ415341 Fg Off John Dunch McMILLAN, RNZAF – Age 26. 415hrs. 10 ops.

Crew details

I posted a message on the RAF Commands MB (www.rafcommands.com) and this quickly came back from Errol Martyn;

“Excerpt from my triogy ‘For Your Tomorrow – A record of New Zealanders who have died while serving with the RNZAF and Allied Air Services since 1915’ (Volume Two: Fates 1943-1998):-

Thu 24 Feb 1944
ALLIED EXPEDITIONARY AIR FORCE
Night flying test
487 Squadron, RNZAF (Hunsdon, Hertfordshire – 140 Airfield HQ, 2 Group, 2nd Tactical Air Force)
Mosquito FB.VI LR343 – broke-up in the air and crashed 2 miles north of Nuthampstead, 13 miles north of Hunsdon at 1430. The two crew are buried at Brookwood, Woking, Surrey.
Pilot: NZ42446 Plt Off Raymond George Cuthbert PAYNE, RNZAF – Age 27. 448hrs. 12 ops.
Navigator: NZ415341 Fg Off John Dunch McMILLAN, RNZAF – Age 26. 415hrs. 10 ops.”

The MB there is well worth a look for those interested in WWII research, it’s frequented by a knowledgble and helpful community.

Jeff

‘Apparently they were testing these top secret nitrous-oxygen (or something like that) injected engines.

That’ll be Nitrous Oxide, when injected in liquid form (-198deg C), as close as possible to the inlet valves, it cools the ingoing air rapidly making it extremely dense, cool dense air equals more horsepower, especially when used in conjunction with superchargers and turbochargers (both of which heat the air they are compressing, use a bike pump and you will feel the effect).
Horsepower gains can be double normal output, a serious increase when you are looking at 1200hp to start with. The only problem is it can only be used in short bursts due to thermal fatigue of the inlet valves.
It is widely used today in drag racing cars for example.

DB

Cheers Jeff,

Have you got the pilots’ names? Be nice to honour the guys on the proposed memorial.

Russ

It’s likely to Mosquito VI LR343 of 487 Sqn which broke up in the air about 2 miles N of Nuthampstead on the 24/2/44 – co-incidently the 61st anniversary today. 487 were at nearby Hunsdon at the time.

We found a few pieces of this one several years ago, but nothing substantial.

Jeff