Help required with old RAF photograph

I obviously can’t speak for Mike who is not a regular poster here, but I am guessing that it is vanishingly unlikely he’d ever object to you downloading the image. Just go for it.

Whilst you say you have no crew or training images of your Uncle, I am sure we’d all like to see anything that you do have that might be of interest. Please?

Moggy

The second photo, yes. My Uncle’s records show similar dates as Mike’s Uncle’s service records. Only about a week apart for 14 ITW, 1EAGS, 1AGS. My Uncle went to a different Conversion Unit and Squadron after that. 429 squadron. RCAF. Sadly their plane went down Oct. 22, 1943 during Kassel op. I wonder if Mike would mind if I keep a copy of this picture? I have no crew or training pictures of my Uncle.

Brilliant!

Thank you for that contribution to what has been a long running quest. Presumably you mean the second photo, not the one at the start of the thread?

Did your Uncle make it through the war?

Moggy

My Uncle was at Raf Pembrey in July 1943 also. His name was Robin McCart. He might be in top row of your picture but not certain. 2nd from right. Thanks for posting the picture.

No1 AGS Pembrey

Hi Dean,

thanks for responding. From my uncles service record it looks like he was there a few months earlier 10.7.43. I dont know if there are any books regarding Pembrey and No 1 AGS from this period.

Regards,
Mike.

I have attached the photo Pembrey 1943…

Hi Mike,

Thanks for the PM and for posting the photo. It’s been a while since I last logged on here, so it was a surprise to receive an e-mail via Key.

Your photo is a lot clearer than mine, but it has confirmed they are fields in the background. It could be a Defiant, but it’s difficult to tell.

Do you know exactly when your Uncle was at Pembrey? According to my Uncle’s service record (post #7) he moved there on 30/10/43. His next move was to 21 OTU Enstone on 4/1/44.

Dean.

Great to see these crew photographs from RAF Pembrey.
The aircraft in the background of the last shot looks like a Miles Master II to my eyes, the pop up screen appearing a bit like a turret, the tall grass line is effecting the underside profile of the aircraft I would say.
These were used for the ground to air turret training by sleeve towing, I don’t know if these were ever based at Pembrey (Miles Martinets were with 1 AGS) but they were at the nearby RAF Stormy Down.

Hi Dean
I have a similar photo showing my uncle Sgt N.M Harrison an Air Gunner who trained at Pembrey. Later killed on operations with 76 Squadron 25th April 1944.

I have sent a private message to you.

Regards,
Mike Harrison

Regards

I have attached the photo Pembrey 1943. If you enlarge this photo there appears to be a Defiant to the right hand side? My uncle can be seen on the front row R/H side. Details regarding him and the crew of Halifax LK789 can be seen at the link below:-

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=90360431

Mike Harrison

Surprised they posed for that photo,being 13 in it…unless they had,nt picked up the superstition bug yet…

regards
jack…

That is fields in the background not the sea . Pembrey is surrounded to the North and East by low hills,so pretty certain Pembrey.

No1 AGS Pembrey photo

This is the only photograph I have of my late uncle in uniform. He was an air gunner with 78 Sqdn. and was sadly KIA in July 1944, with the rest of the crew of Halifax NA513, whilst on a bombing raid over France. I have the details from WR Chorley’s ‘Bomber Command Losses’ and additional information from RN Roberts ‘The Halifax File’. But can anyone throw any light on this photograph? Where was it taken, would it have been taken during training, comments on the uniform, cap badges etc. It’s not a very good quality photograph, but is that a Spit in the background? Any ideas? Your help would be much appreciated.

Dean.

Hi Dean
I have a similar photo showing my uncle Sgt N.M Harrison an Air Gunner who trained at Pembrey. Later killed on operations with 76 Squadron 25th April 1944.

I have sent a private message to you.

Regards,
Mike Harrison

Regards

With regard to Nick’s comments above, then it is very possible that this is a Martinet, as they have the same wing, gear and forward fuselage (cowlings/engine) as the Master

Moggy – I agree, given the options, Pembrey does seem to be the best bet… but it could be anywhere. Hopefully when I can get a look at the original, the definition will be better and I’ll be able to confirm if that is the sea in the background; and with any luck that aircraft will be a bit clearer as well.

galdri – Interesting thought; that would certainly tie in with Nick’s last post. The more I look at it, the more it seems to morph into different shapes! I wondered about the main gear though, they seem to be either splayed out or angled forward – it’s difficult to tell from the camera angle. As I said above, hopefully the original will be clearer.

Nick – Thanks for that info. Yes, it is treasured, particularly as it’s the only photograph we have of him in the RAF. Yes, they look very fresh faced don’t they (apart from the one on the end, like you mentioned!) my uncle was only 19 when he was lost.

Thanks again chaps,

Dean.

According to Ray Sturtivant’s book “Flying Training and Support Units of the RAF” 1AGS in September 1943 had on charge 26+10 Ansons and 18+9 Martinets; although it also lists Master II DL289 as being on establishment at some stage. Galdri your eyesight is better than mine, even with a magnifying glass I cannot even make out the aeroplane in the background!
Dean, it is a lovely photograph, and is treasured I am sure. What strikes me is the youth of all of the trainees, apart from the chap on the extreme right of the middle row. I wonder if his nickname was “Grandpa” or some such….

I can not make full identification of the aircraft in the background of the first picture you posted Dean, but it certainly looks like a Miles Master (and probably a Mk. II/III as well). Here are the reasons. It is single engine, with somewhat marked dihedral on the outer wing panels . It has what appears to be that strange Miles Master maingear geometry when sitting on the ground. The nose seems a bit too broad (thick) to be an inline engined variant, hence a Mk.II/III. And the engine is running, if the propblades are anything to go by!

Hope it all makes sense!

I´ll get my coat, where is the door?

Of the possibilities Pembrey is the one that I’d guess is best fit to the picture, but I certainly wouldn’t gamble more than a few pence.

Moggy

Additional Information

Kev35 & James – Defiants would certainly make sense at an AGS. What other types would be used?

The image below is taken from my uncle’s service record – it’s quite poignant to note he spent a year and a half training, only to be lost 12 days after being posted to an active squadron – how typical this must have been of those times.

I’ve done a bit of Googling and found the location of most of the units. Could the photograph have been taken at Pembrey?

ACSB – Doncaster
1 ACRC – Babbacombe
14 ITW – St Leonards
1 EAGS – Bridgnorth
1 AGS – Pembrey
21 OTU – Enstone (I have a letter, sent during his time here, which confirms Enstone)
41 Base – Marston Moor
78 Sqdn – Breighton

Dean.

Just a thought. Did AGS’s ever have Defiants on strength?

I believe so. I’m certain that the Bomber Gunnery Training Unit based at Newmarket had Defiants at some periods.

Can’t make out the aircraft in the background, eyes aren’t good enough, perhaps you should post a request on RAF Commands or on the research section of the Plane Talk Forum?

Just a thought. Did AGS’s ever have Defiants on strength?

Regards,

kev35

Denis & Nick – Thanks for the information; I wondered what the flashes on the caps were. After I posted the thread I had another look at his service record, which I obtained from RAF Innsworth. On it is a list of units, so I’ll scan the relevant section and post it on here tonight. Nick, now you’ve mentioned it, it does look like the sea in the background. I thought it was all fields, disappearing up to the horizon, but I think you’re right. It’s frustrating, but there’s just not quite enough clarity to make out the aircraft. I think there’s some dihedral there, which made me think Spit rather than Hurricane, and maybe there’s the starboard wing of another aircraft, just behind the person on the left. If I have time this weekend I’ll get hold of the original from my parents and try a higher resolution scan.

Thanks again,

Dean.