Hendon and Cosford new aircraft news

I think this Nimrod is a new arrival at Cosford, I saw it today and got a bonus Vulcan flypast into the bargain. Perhaps you were there?

I think this Nimrod is a new arrival at Cosford, I saw it today and got a bonus Vulcan flypast into the bargain. Perhaps you were there?

I remember talking to a certain curator at Hendon who expressed his annoyance at the fact that Hendon didn’t have a Jaguar, yet East Foirtune and IWM did!

Cbut some careful thought and prioritisation could have got a C130 (walk through display anyone?), Jaguar, Harrier GR5/7/9 and a Nimrod into London. Maritime and AT are woefully under-represented at Hendon, I think one example of each from the 70s-00s (both with far more distinguished combat histories than other ac at Hendon) is not too much to ask?

I beleive the RAFM is due to get a Harrier GR9 soon – whether at Hendon or more likley Cosford initially (until they work out how to move the airframes around)

Jaguar is another one with a considerable combat history that you would think should be included at either Museum

AT and MR types have the misfortune of being big, and that means having to find space as much as transportation costs – Could Hendon fit a C-130 into the buildings without losing several others for example? I am slightly surprised they didn’t get a NImrod cockpit for Hendon to go with the full airframe that’s going to Cosford – that would have given them a Nimrod presence and an interesting walk through.

I’d rather see the plastic joint strike fighter outside & the typhoon sitting on its undercarriage.

Yes it begars belief that its still outside whilst a common T-33 with no U.K direct connection sits in the warmth.

As for the Sea Balliol, I have always personally thought that should be at Yeovilton in the FAAM where it is far more relevant, and that the BP111 that sits outdoors at MAM would better suit Cosford’s research jets and geographical link with Boulton Paul.

It is a crying shame that the Boulton Paul 111 is allowed to sit out in all weathers. It should at least be under cover, if not restored.

Planemike

As for the Sea Balliol, I have always personally thought that should be at Yeovilton in the FAAM where it is far more relevant, and that the BP111 that sits outdoors at MAM would better suit Cosford’s research jets and geographical link with Boulton Paul.

Hear hear that man.

TT

That’s the one, although initially the RAF weren’t interested in what Cotton offered and the Admiralty asked him to bring back imagery of German ships in port at Wilhelmshaven, once the clarity of the images was seen the RAF heads changed their opinion.

You’re right about the Cygnet, it would be good to see it on display next to a Boston at Hendon; Guy Gibson flew ‘AGBN at one stage, it’s recorded in his log book.

The aircraft is the former G-AFTL which belongs to the Runyan family. Tragically father and son Runyan were killed a few years ago in a flying acccident. I believe its not currently airworthy. It is without doubt the most historically important aircraft in British military history outside of preservation.

One of Sid Cotton’s Electras is still flying in the USA, complete with under floor camera hatch, I think…

Two aircraft readily spring to mind -an Electra Junior to represent the work of Sidney Cotton and the GAL Cygnet at East Fortune to show how the type was used to train Boston crews. Outside of that a Snipe must be addressed but I have a feeling thats not too far away!

Chaps – thanks for being gentle! I’m not on a mission to criticise the RAFM; I still find it as inspiring and evocative a place as when I was young and dreamt of joining the Service. I fully understand the need to engage with the imagination of the public, but, to me, the arguement about the cost of moving large ac around doesn’t wash; RAFM were quite happy to move the Valiant to Cosford (quite right to!), the Wellington for conservation (ditto) and rushed a F3 to Hendon with unseemly haste. Some iconic aircraft (Spitfire/Hurricane) deserve to be in both locations because that is what punters expect to see, but some careful thought and prioritisation could have got a C130 (walk through display anyone?), Jaguar, Harrier GR5/7/9 and a Nimrod into London. Maritime and AT are woefully under-represented at Hendon, I think one example of each from the 70s-00s (both with far more distinguished combat histories than other ac at Hendon) is not too much to ask?

Diversity seems a frequently used word in this thread. What exactly are we refering to?

My understanding from earlier posts is that it’s the memories of the creators/pilots of these aircraft that the RAFM in marking by having these aircraft, ie Compers’ work for the RAF. I suppose that because these aircraft are so small and relatively restoration light that they are not a drain on the RAF Museum resources away from the ‘core’ aircraft.

I kind of agree with Nuumaan in that the balance of the exhibits seems about right to me, both in terms of all the airframes they have and the spread across the two main sites.
However there are oddities which are a bit of a quandry for me, the MH-53 and F-111 are great exhibits to look at, and I’m so glad that they are maintained indoors in a national museum, but surely an RAF Sea King, Chinook or service Jaguar would be more relevant.

I also agree with what Black Knight says aswel in that Hendon seems to have declined, for me this seems to have set in from around the time the Beverley was cut up and a move towards making the museum more tourist friendly.
I can see that these catchily titled displays and spaces used for conferences are there rto make more money from the public and businesses, but when areas are regularly cordoned off, and exhibits appear unkempt and dusty, is it a good thing?
It just lacks direction for me, having said that it houses one of the most superb collection of aircraft anywhere, which is the sole reason that it will always be on the revisit list.
As for Cosford, that to me has improved leaps and bounds, and remains my favourite UK air museum, very close to FAAM Yeovilton anyway.
I think both sites should be congratulated for being able to re-arrange themselves and accomodate the many types that have been retired lately, and at the end of the day we are very lucky to have them both, I just hope that common sense prevails and that the millions of pounds being quoted for the ubsurd beacon idea for the London site gets diverted into the exhibits or a major overhaul of the Hendon buildings.

There are two ‘Lightnings’ at Cosford, P.1 WG760, P.1B XG337 going vertical in the CWM

BTW, which obtainable RAF aircraft types (apart from Sea King, Chinook, Jaguar GR) do we think should be displayed in the RAF museums that aren’t?

Hi Planemike, don’t worry, I’m not griping at anyone for expressing their views, I just think that there’s no one from RAFM here to defend it, so I guess someone has to :). I don’t really understand the cleanliness side of things, nor the odd opening times of the GW hangar; such an evocative place, such a pity it doesn’t get more open time. Whenever I’m there I always ask to get inside it.

I once got my nose out of joint during a visit to a museum I used to work at because the aircraft were filthy, so I wrote in and complained. I got a letter back saying they are not! It wasn’t Hendon either. If I can remember correctly, I don’t think the guides were/are allowed to touch the aircraft at Hendon – might be wrong.

Evalu8ter, jump on in, feet first!

Oh so much to comment on here……!!!

Nuuumannn. I am not critical of the RAFM collection policy, by and large, I feel they get it right. Fully understand the situation re. the ex BA aircraft. No criticsm of the RAFM. Better not say what I think of BA…….(Mike, don’t go there)!!!

Entirely agree with you about aircraft outdoors in this country. That is why I feel money should used to create the largest weather proof sheds (aka as hangars), for a given amount of money, to protect the maximum number of aircraft, rather than spending on some architect’s dream. That is the way the Newarks, Elvingtons etc. of this world work.

Would also be a little critical of some aspects of the day to day running ie access times and aircraft cleanliness. It seems crazy to me to be talking about spending 10s on millions of £s on some supposed prestige project while we can’t find the 100’s/1000s of £s necessary to allow regular acccess to clean exhibits.

David B. “The Mew Gull and the Swift hardly changed aviation”. I agree but I do believe we should honour the memory of Alex Henshaw, a remarkable pilot by anybody’s standards. It took over 70 years for anyone to break his Capetown record and the current record holder had the benefit of modern technology in the form of GPS and an infinitely more reliable engine.

Take issue with you about “not doing the core”. I believe they are, of course it is always possible to find gaps one would wish to fill. Point taken about the Dornier Do24. Unlike the Catalina and Stranrear which while not wearing RAF markings did both serve with the RAF.

Evalu8ter. Welcome to the lion’s den. Pleased to say the lions in here are very friendly. Can see your reasoning but think you have to concede that not every one is going to have the chance of visiting both Museums, so while Cosford has the bulk of the R&D a/c it seems fair to have some R&D items at Hendon. The F35 is the latest thing, is “sexy” and therefore one can see why it would be displayed in the capital rather than out in rural Shropshire. Think I am right in saying there is a Lightning in the “twisted triangle” at Cosford.

Planemike

Gee whiz! 🙂 Regarding the different locations of airframes, I reckon for bigger stuff not being at Hendon is because it is easier to fly a Herc into Cosford! As I said in my earlier post; it costs a lot to transport aircraft about the place, the bigger, the more expensive. Also, space is at a premium at Hendon, so filling the hangars with too many big aircraft means less to see, plus, you’d have the photographers griping about not being able to photograph them properly… There’s lots of space at Cosford. As for the BA collection, the money received from the public probably went into paying for their upkeep, which was left to the RAFM to provide. The Britannia and Comet are still there because of the types’ RAF provenance.

Regarding the Cold War hangar, they have a Lightning in there if I can remember. As I stated in my earlier post, the twisted triangle was designed to get the big stuff under cover; the Cold War aspect was necessary to secure funding to do so – a sop to the funding bodies.

Dave, the Dornier was a gift to the museum; it’s now in the Netherlands because it was outside of the museum’s collection policy – it was partially built there, if I can remember correctly. As for the gaps in the collection, the museum has a huge wishlist and I remember talking to senior staff about this, but its a matter of what exists and what one can get their hands on. Leadership changes always mean a change in policy too.

I can’t believe I’m defending the museum – I still think Hendon’s a great place.

As current aircrew I tread carefully into this lion’s den…

However,
I have become more mystified over the years to the display policy at Hendon; I know that FJ are “sexy” and (relatively) small but I look at the Hendon collection and note the Lightning/F3/F4 et al in there and think why are they not in the Cold War museum? That’s (largely) their legacy (AD conspiracy anyone?). There are, IIRC, 2 Tornado GR1s (one is appropriate) there and a F35 mock-up – surely as an experimental (still) ac it should be at Cosford? Aircraft with far more Operational honours (Jag, Nimrod, C130, NI Wessex) are relegated to Cosford and many of the RW types (such as Puma/Sea King) are ignored completely (as is second-gen Harrier…) or, in the case of the CH47, represented by an inaccurate composite. Let’s have Hendon celebrating those aircraft with operational pedigree and let Cosford represent the sacrifices of the Cold War generation.

Preparing for incoming…..

Diversity seems a frequently used word in this thread. What exactly are we refering to? It seems appropriate for the RAFM to acquire small pre war civil aircraft -as long as they are limited production ! The Mew Gull and Swift hardly changed aviation -maybe the D.H 60 Moth should be considered as far more significant in context as it certainly got far more people into the sky -trailblazed around the world and undoubtedly provided a core of civilian pilots when the clouds of war were on the horizon.

Effectively the RAF isnt doing the ‘core’ as there are still gaps in the collection – its not about being too focused -its about looking what is appropriate ! For many years the RAFM had the Spanish Dornier Do24 on display – certainly ‘diverse’ but how many were unpset at its passing ? Few I guess !

As for Cosford – the same old arguement goes on ! BA provided the aircraft for the collection at Cosford – they are continually slated for not providing funds to protect them -very little or no mention is ever made of the visitor
numbers and income the RAFM made from them!

Hi Planemike, I, like you am an enthusiast, but having spent a number of years in the museums industry has put a different perspective on my outlook. It’s easy to criticise these organisations for the choices they make and like in any industry there is politics, but things are not always so clear cut. I remember RAFM being harshly criticised for the grounding of the LVG, but as it was, those doing the criticising were misinformed by a certain (well meaning, but also similarly misinformed) volunteer organisation.

As for the airliners at Cosford, they belonged to British Airways and it was up to them to provide funding for their upkeep. Since they were no longer able to, the collection was scrapped or dispersed. The cost of maintaining aircraft outside is enormous especially the bigger they are, and if you have to move any of them, this costs a fortune. I remember seeing the cost of moving a relatively small airframe (a Harrier) from one end of the country to the other; it was in excess of 25,000 quid once all factors had been taken into consideration.

Thankfully some of the airliners still survive; the Viscount and BAC-1-11 and 707 nose section at East Fortune, for example. EF’s airline collection is small but impressive, a Comet 4c, the Jetstream 31 prototype, a D.H.84 Dragon, a Concorde and the earlier mentioned types, as well as a TCA Vanguard cockpit mock-up, Jetstream 32 fuselage, early RB.211 and various other bits and pieces. At least now these things are at EF, their future is secure. And then there’s the Duxford Aviation Society and the good work they’re doing.

regarding the non-National Museums, I love visiting these places because they aren’t governed by the same criteria as the big ones; Elvington and Newark (for example) are fantastic places, not just because of their collections, but also because of what they have managed to achieve with a little elbow grease and commitment. Their diversity in what they put on display and the slightly rustic nature of their surroundings adds to their charm. I love seeing hand typed display boards with errors white-outed and the random nature of some of the displays by comparison to the big boys.

“X-Box Generation” = Microsoft X-Box is a video game console; bored kids sitting in front of the telly playing video games.

Cheers