Hendons B-17

You’ll go far young man! 😉

just one comment – my frustrations aren’t “ill-founded” because they are very real to me!

I still find it incongruous that say the Director at, say, IWM one day can move over to be the Director at Tate Britain the next. Call me old fashioned but I honestly think that the man in charge has to have a “feel” for the specialised subject rather than simply regarding it as a profession where the actual subject of the collection is to some extent irrelevant.

It’s all a question of balance – I can think of national museums still run by the old school (or corps)tie where you think “why the hell don’t they get a professional in”

But at the end of the day – whilst we enthusiasts are only a small part of the footfall, we are likely to be the ones who keep coming back….(or not)

I see your point, but I don’t agree. The director like everyone else in the modern (post-modern?!) museum, is there to do their own specific jobs, the most important of which is basically fundraising. Yes, an appreciation abd some sort of grounding in the subject is desirable and usually exists in some form (directors rarely take a job they have zero interest in). On a more general level, no one category of museum object should be viewed as subjectively superior than another. Therefore if a director is qualified to lead a museum whose main collection is archaeological, he should be equally capable at the head of an art museum or an aviation museum. If he knows the difference between a Hurricane and a Spitfire, so much the better.

A more pragmatic reason is that the director of a National just does not have the time to be more than superficially involved with the objects, their interpretation, or any other specialist area. This delineation allows those with the specialist training and knowledge to, simply put, get on with their respective jobs, without any interference from ‘higher up’ who might otherwise do things outside their remit. For example, (from my own sphere) they might accept items offered by the public off their own bat without documenting their entry or letting me know, because they think they know what’s best for the object and the museum. They may in fact know what’s best, but if responsibities are apportioned correctly (ie all objects offered pass through Collections), there can be no room for error (e.g. losing said item…).

Finally, a director not already part of an existing ‘community’ (object specialisms of all kinds can still be elitist and self-aggrandising) is not subject to the politics and intrigue involved. These (s)he can take or leave as necessary with the advice of longer-standing staff members.

I will say that a Director with an affinity for the objects is a major plus in my book, as it means more effort to raise money specifically for objects already in collections rather than for new whizz-bang developments. Or, if whizz-bang is the way to go, that there is enough money to provide for existing (and any new) objects (ie aircraft!) within that development. I think and hope that Richard Ashton, despite his radically different (ie non-museum, not just non-aviation) background is the man for our Director’s job.

And the plate is large enough for you to drive your car over anything on it that’s still moving.

Now that does sound good…pencil me in for one of those. Lunch for me is usually in a bag. I had a decent ham egg and chips in a pub in Sawston the other week mind.

Fifteen all or even 15:30

Not a problem Jeepman…..The general public…there’s your problem, right there! 😉

You’ll go far young man! 😉

just one comment – my frustrations aren’t “ill-founded” because they are very real to me!

I still find it incongruous that say the Director at, say, IWM one day can move over to be the Director at Tate Britain the next. Call me old fashioned but I honestly think that the man in charge has to have a “feel” for the specialised subject rather than simply regarding it as a profession where the actual subject of the collection is to some extent irrelevant.

It’s all a question of balance – I can think of national museums still run by the old school (or corps)tie where you think “why the hell don’t they get a professional in”

But at the end of the day – whilst we enthusiasts are only a small part of the footfall, we are likely to be the ones who keep coming back….(or not)

JF

The Red Lion is wonderful, by Road Kill we mean a mixed grill that includes everything and anything that once had a face, its superb.

Well said Nick.

So Jonathan, are you ready for a few beers and roadkill platters in the name of education?

I appreciate the invitation, and I hope I can catch some of you in the pub in the new year (airshow times perhaps?). Sadly, beer and driving 100 miles a day just to get here don’t really mix 🙁

PS Is the Red Lion that bad? The conservation guys seem to like it!

I’m probably going to be shot down in flames about this comment – but hey I’m a grown up sort of guy and I can take it – I hope

Honestly – nothing personal JF but for many this may be the root cause of a number of the frustrations that some museums present. The people in charge are “archaeologist and museum professional(s) by training” and are not necessarily “aviation specialists” – hence the dark lighting in the Bomber Command Hall or the Battle of Britain “experience”.

Tin hat on, ear plugs in 😎

Not a problem Jeepman, I understand your frustrations but they are largely ill-founded. I am not an aviation specialist because I am not required to be. My general knowledge and other skills are more than enough to carry out my duties, including answering queries from the public. My other roles are common to every other museum out there; documentation and care of collections. Most of you here will have forgotten more about aviation than I have ever known, but relatively, I do have a good general knowledge of aviation history (military mostly) and the research skills to make up for it where necessary. For what its worth, my childhood was spent dreaming of going to an airshow that wasn’t Yeovilton (not that I didn’t love Yeovilton)! It’s just that in my working life I have had other concerns and interests that have interrupted my appreciation and reading into aviation. I’m rectifying this every day!

The people in charge may have mixed backgrounds but they are increasingly there for good reason (rather than the old-boy network or by default) because they have the set of skills necessary to work well in a museum, regardless of the subject matter. Specialist knowledge is supplied by…specialists! And we have plenty of those. Trust me, the curators know what they’re talking about. Ideally they will have similar museum training to myself, a good deal more experience, as well as a specialism that can be called upon. If not, it comes from elsewhere.

The shortfalls you speak of come from a lack of funds, or from mismanagement of those without museum training OR specialist knowledge, who still persist in some places. Or from both those things. Not from lack of skills, knowledge or good intentions. Don’t forget also that we are here for everybody, not just those invested in aviation history. It’s easy to find the holes when you know the subject (and indeed the museums) inside out. Not to say that the enthusiast represents a small percentage of our visitors, as this is not true; we would be sunk without you! Just that we have to please and inform the entire general public.

The general public…there’s your problem, right there! 😉

Ah-ha

But Jonathan has said he is willing to learn, so let us educate him 🙂

(This will involve numerous beers and road kill platters in the Red Lion of course)

A-ha

Please bear in mind that I’m not an aviation specialist and its not my background (I’m an archaeologist and museum professional by training)

I’m probably going to be shot down in flames about this comment – but hey I’m a grown up sort of guy and I can take it – I hope

Honestly – nothing personal JF but for many this may be the root cause of a number of the frustrations that some museums present. The people in charge are “archaeologist and museum professional(s) by training” and are not necessarily “aviation specialists” – hence the dark lighting in the Bomber Command Hall or the Battle of Britain “experience”.

Tin hat on, ear plugs in 😎

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=36396&page=3

There were basic facts (that I’m sure you all knew) in there and what I should have said in less dramatic terms was that the aircraft was due for retirement (fact) and had suffered a crash (fact) and therefore had in my view had its ‘innings’. If that’s still controversial, that’s my (now better informed!) opinion. Please bear in mind that I’m not an aviation specialist and its not my background (I’m an archaeologist and museum professional by training) but I do have a strong interest and am still learning!

Good luck with the Tri-motor, they really are an amazing looking aircraft. Take one corrugated iron shed, add wings and a tail, then fly!!

Another aircraft on the list to fly on before I die.

When I was in the US last year I was told the Kalamazoo collection is static until insurance prices come down. They simply could nto afford to fly them. The T28 that still flies there has its insurance paid by the pilots.

At this time the T-28 is not flying either, although that is not to say it is not flyable. The aircraft actually belongs to one of our members and is not owned by the musuem. The same is true of Vlado Lenoch’s P-51D which winters over here at the Air Zoo. That bird came in a few weeks ago, and is currently in our Flight & Restoration Center.

The one aircraft in the Air Zoo’s collection that will fly again is our Ford Tri-motor. Work is underway on getting the old gal back in the air, hopefully by the end of summer 2005. The wing center section which was suffering from corrosion is being re-built by Maurice Hovius at his workshop in Vicksburg, Michigan. The aircraft is also in need of two new engines. Once those two problems are fixed, she’ll be back in passenger service again, flying folks on a trip around Kalamazoo.

Stewart

The reality is that Black 6 was due to be retired from flying. There had been an extension to her flying life due to unservicability problems in her first few years which had restricted her flying hours.
However if we then choose to criticise the pilot whilst being in the postion of being an observer and not actually the person in the cockpit well
maybe that’s the time to either learn to fly a Me109 ourselves or the other option is to allow for human error.
There are a number of pilots who have sadly met their end in Hispano Buchon’s and indeed in wartime training accidents in Me109’s . They are a type that can decidedly ‘bite’ -not just low time pilots but vastly experienced ones as well.
Often you hear comments from restorers that their project was sold from under them or that they should had been consulted about something . The reality is that you make your own decision on how you spend your time – if you wish to control a project the simplest way is to own it. If you feel that at some stage in the future a project might be sold from under you well review your involvement .

Flood,

Whatever

Dragging the thread even further off topic…
First I wish to point out that I am not a moderator here – despite what it says under the moderator bits (and by the same reasoning neither is Moggy). So making dark comments about me wandering the forums implying that I in some way gloat about being a moderator would appear to be all in your mind – unless you can show such an occasion?
If you would care to address your barbed observations from post 50 about me then we would all be wiser, but I fear it is another of those off-those flippant put-downs that are so well used against those not in ‘the gang’.
Still, I am sure you can drag the thread back – have another dig at me…

Flood

Flood

Grow Up!

You think it is perfectly acceptable for you a MODERATOR to wander about the forums making veiled and sarcastic comments about the membership (unless they are your special friends that is) but get all upset when someone has the temerity to give some back.

I’m sorry but if you cant stand the heat get out of the kitchen, I’m calling you out. Please explain yourself.

As you have ruined what was a perfectly good thread I hope you are pleased with yourself.

It is not a simplistic as fly or dont fly, indeed it is Flood who is being simplistic here as is his want (“we” voted for him so “we” have to put up with him).

Ah, another personal attack.
Still, at least its not a female this time – maybe it is the season.

Flood

Fluffy

Amen to that, I think we can all understand where you are coming from.

Have a great 2005.

Yes Jonathan has indeed apologised just as I posted, but all I was saying is before you post please facts not assumptions. This has happened several times this year and can be upsetting/ annoying to those of us that operate aircraft.

End of ramble.
Heres to a better year in 2005.

Now Fluffy be nice, Jonathan has apologised for making his original comments. We all know that the reason she isnt flying is because of some faceless decision and that her true place is in the air. Without your efforts Fluffy none of us would have seen her fly and for that we are eternaly grateful.

Jonathan as you can see the subject of Black6 raises some very emotive issues here so please dont feel offended by the comments you have recieved. It is not a simplistic as fly or dont fly, indeed it is Flood who is being simplistic here as is his want (“we” voted for him so “we” have to put up with him). No need to be embarrased at all, your input is valued here.

I shall stop rambling now and have another beer!

Not aimed at any individual

Alternately instead of jumping on JonathanF as a heretic you could cut the guy some slack, he seems a genuine enthusiast in the right job – how many times has that happened? Isn’t he writing on an Aviation forum on his days off?

I’d like to think he’d stick around and perhaps give us the occasional IWM inside track rather than be put-off by receiving more flack than a daylight on Berlin for stuff he had no control over or daring to voice his views

Just a thought…….