High ground wrecks

From mountain to museum display..how it can be done well…Norway…http://luftfartsmuseum.no/fly/junkers-ju-88-a-4-3/

There are a lot more than 200 high ground crash sites where there is findable wreckage remaining, having been to over 400.

While people do not post much about them on here, there is plenty elsewhere on the web, without being too blatant I would suggest clicking on the link below so see a big selection from across the British Isles.

Most sites have not changed much over the last few years, some I go back every now and then so get to see changes or the lack of. The most noticeable change over the last 10 years is how advanced corrosion has become. On the whole it is no longer worth recovering items from any of the sites, except those on the highest ground where low average temperatures have helped slow (but not stop) corrosion. Even 10 years ago items were showing signs of de-laminating with internal corrosion literally blowing the item apart and that type of corrosion will eventually destroy most parts, regardless of where they are.

It is only on a handful of sites where there have been big changes since the last wave or mass recovery in the 80s/90s, either through removal of wreckage or large numbers of visitors trampling them where the site has become over publicised. As this thread shows there is a fixation on a couple of sites which are seen as (ever re-occurring) examples, when they are but a couple in several hundred. The low level removal of small items seems from my experience to be greatly overstated, mostly by people who used to visit sites 30-40 years ago who have not regularly revisited them since to see how they have altered.

If you search on google images and use the aircraft type and area of the crash site it is surprising what turns up.
For example Brecon beacons https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=wellington+crash+site+brecon+beacons&biw=1210&bih=693&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=wORoVL-CPbHLsASBqYGwBw&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAg

Thanks Mike – that’s a quality post, from someone who was there at the time. It would be great if you could post some of your pics.

Often high ground wrecks were harder to access and 30..40 years ago it was considered that digging would unearth better items for museum display and also for the sale of parts which would offset the cost of the hire of plant machinery. The remote locations of high ground did however favour a lot of looting of smaller items many of which are still hidden away in sheds etc. The BAAc was formed to try and improve attitudes but came too late to save a lot of high ground wrecks from the looters and scrapmen(they never gave a toss for the historical aspect of the wrecks). The pace of looting has increased with the arrival of quads and building of many hill tracks. Some really good work has been done regarding Whitleys and Wellingtons for recognised projects but with ostrich attitudes from some landowners I feel its only 5 years left for the approx 200 sites left.

It’s a great site that one, Sonderman. I regularly trawl through it and there is some amazing stuff still to be seen.

The Boston remains were recovered by the Douglas Boston/Havoc Preservation Trust, about which I recall there was an article in Flypast, probably nineteen eighties. The main man (I think it may have been Dick Nutt) passed away and no more was heard of the project – at least by me anyway so it’s interesting to hear of the remains still extant. ISTR he was getting along quite nicely in reconstructing a complete aircraft before the group’s demise.

I’m surprised there haven’t been more posts on this thread as many people visited a lot of the HG wrecks and took photos. I have a fair few myself though they are on old wet film so will need to be scanned in so that I can contribute. North Wales was the subject of most of my visits and I well remember the Lincoln (RF511) on Carnedd Llewellyn with all the engines present. The Ventura on Carnedd Dafydd likewise, with other very interesting parts and also the Canberra not too far away. Also, I visited Mosquito, Vampire, Lancaster and Anson sites where there was still plenty to be seen – and all less than two hour’s drive from home.

The Snowdonia Aircraft Historical Group were quite active at the time and I accompanied Dafydd Roberts, a very pleasant and friendly Bethesda man, on a few expeditions. It was Dafydd who received quite a few engines from the Snowdonia National Park authority after they paid for a “clean-up” of the hills of aircraft wreckage some time in the 1980’s.

I also met the late, great Arthur Evans of Llanberis (appropriately described by Dafydd as a bit of a terrier – and true it was!). Arthur pioneered a lot of the visits to the sites in the area and, with the SAHG was also instrumental, I believe, in producing several A5 notebook-style publications on the various wrecks in the area, their locations and wreckage remaining, which I still have, somewhere.

I recall that it seemed strange at the time, that people elsewhere in the UK were going to great lengths and expense to excavate aircraft from the ground when the same types could be found almost in abundance on various hillsides.

Anon.

An interesting site about wrecks in Scandinavia: https://ktsorens.tihlde.org/flyvrak/

Must have been one of those rare armed F5 photographic aircraft.

That arrived early

If you have any questions please ask a cracking bit of battle of Britain history.

Bet that shocked Epro 210 when it bounced them :highly_amused:

Moggy

He takes most of his text directly from the Red Kite aviation archaeology site. Pick a history, any history…
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/RARE-Oxygen-bottle-markings-Heinkel-he-111-staffelkapitan-s-d-16-8-40-Petworth-/361104390492?pt=UK_Collectables_Militaria_LE&hash=item54137fb95c
The luftwaffe was using cylindrical oxy bottles in 1940. These didn’t exist in 1940.

Well said Ian, I bet the seller has no permission to use those paintings either.

I believe the Lightning was recovered by the Warplane Aircraft Recovery Group. I don’t think it’s at their museum at Sleap. I was suprised to see the remains of the Boston at the museum in Norwich Airport last summer. The last time I’d seen it was in 1979! I’m sure there was a post here regarding it’s scrapping straight after recovery. Thankfully not true. It has lost it’s undercarriage though.

Can anyone tell me what happened to the rest of this Lightning? It is mentioned in High Ground Wrecks that many of the larger sections found their way to museums, but I am a bit in the dark as to which museums! Does anyone know? Also, what became of the remains of the Carnedd Dafydd Boston? I know some of it was scrapped, but I suspect some parts survived. Does anyone know?

Re the Plynlimon Lightning: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/361104443214?_trksid=p2060778.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
Must have been one of those rare armed F5 photographic aircraft.

Is the BAAC still active?

The BAAC , the British Aviation Archaeology Council , is very much still alive and well and very active , and whose webmaster is a forumite and regular poster on all things aviation archaeology . Website link here ; http://www.aviationarchaeology.org.uk/index

Talk of the P38 on the beach in North Wales had me googling the high ground P38 Plylimon site. Interested to note that the supercharger has been cut out and the landowner was not pleased. He is of the “leave it all on the hill as a memorial” group.Surely by now it is time to get the good items down and undercover away from the scrappers? A wreck local to me has the same problem, the Lancaster on the Monadliaths east of Kingussie.
Can anyone add an update as to the state of Uk co ordination of landowners in regards to high ground wrecks ? Is the BAAC still active?

Two other early sources of HGW were the RAF Mountain Rescue location sheets for Valley and Kinloss,these were to help the teams be aware of existing wrecks when called out to search.

I have a few puzzles to solve in Scotland regarding HGWs and this year will make some new flights in the C 172 over the mountains with my camera and then study the results at home on the PC screen. My first target is to look around a part of the Cairngorms where I was told a helicopter pilot saw a H shaped tail unit in a gully. On the same flight I will make close up views of the known locations where medium to large remains exist such as the Canberra.

That old list has some interesting features on it, shows up what information was & wasn’t available then.

The Blackden Edge site is Halifax HR727, it was a fairly spread out site back then. Even 10 years ago it was still well spread out but has virtually all been gathered in more recent years into a single collection. The other site on that area of Kinder is Wellington X3348.

As Dave said the A-20 was quite a way to the south between Buxton & Leek, that ‘rumour’ at the head of the Longdendale valley seems to have been a corruption of the Botha on Round Hill a little to the SW.

I’ve got a copy of that list too. There was an A-20 crash in the Peaks but some way south of that position on relatively low ground.

And for Anon, the HGW books certainly never featured deliberately wrong map refs, just errors from poor map reading or duff gen from contributors! A few particularly good wrecks were simply left out but they got pillaged anyway.

Hi pm, I kept the resolution low because I haven’t seen Paul in years and while I doubt he would mind me posting a scan of his log as a piece of nostalgia for us old bog trotters, he might not wish the details to be published.

That said, item 19 refers to a USAAF A20, which I don’t think was ever confirmed, and item 22 is incomplete – site: Blackden Edge, no type or other details listed. I’m sure contemporary researchers could fill us in.

Intersting list

Air Minitry what do #19 and #22 say please. I can’t make out the type

Paul