High Speed Spit

Hi Jagan,

Must have been really fascinating to talk to a vet.
Especially about Tempests.
🙂

A few more details: Powles was probably lucky that his Spitfire was trimmed as it was. Rudder for the torque of the prop. at around 2.700 RPM. Yawing, but it felt as he was being shaken by a giant hand. He pushed (and pulled) but only to the point, that he felt something else might break in the controls. Pushing might actually have delayed recovery! During the descent he saw condensation clouds above the wings – unknown to him before. We see it now in damp conditions when modern fighters zip around the sky.

The RAE tests were prompted by dozens of British and American fighters diving straight into the ground. “George” Bullman, Hawker test pilot, made a study of compressibility, also in the USA, and made a booklet in early 1943: “Piloting Techniques at Compressibility Speeds”. As Gunston says this almost certainly saved aircraft and lives.

Best regards

In 1993 I met Kiwi Battle of Britain pilot Bob Spurdle. He was telling me about one incident during the war where he was forced into a dive, and he exceeded the recommended speed for a Spitfire dive, but wasn’t too worried because he believed the Spit could take it. It didn’t! He got it so fast, and he actually said he believed he was close to the sound barrier, both wings snapped off!

He bailed out, and then the ruddy Hun tried to shoot him in his parachute, damn rotter! I think from memory this was during the actual battle. I’ll have to check it up in his book, Blue Arena, if I get a chance. Sadly he’s no longer with us.

Originally posted by turbo_NZ
Hi Jagan,

Was that an Indian Air Force vet or RAF ?
Were Tempests used by other air-forces other than RAF ?

Cheers
Chris

Chris, Royal Indian Air Force vet (they are the only kind i can reach/find here!) . The IAF did use Tempest IIs in action in the 1947-48 Operations in Kashmir. Mostly bombing sorties against mountain targets. The gentleman I met and spoke with was a Burma front veteran, flew Hurris, Spits, Tempests (1947 and after)

Daz, Thanks for the estimates..

Jagan

A quick conversion of knots – mph…

500kts = 575.5mph

Hi Jagan,

Was that an Indian Air Force vet or RAF ?
Were Tempests used by other air-forces other than RAF ?

Cheers
Chris

Hi Turbo,

I dont know myself – but he did say “The speed went 500 plus” dont know if he meant knots or miles – though i would believe it was knots. I was too excited to meet a vet that i always forget the nitty gritties of it.

Jagan

Hi Jagan,

My guess would be 500-550 knots.
The tempest was very fast in it’s day.

Am I close ?

What a lovely thread (and how relevant to my current project!)

I was speaking to a Tempest Pilot recently and he described on of his sorties, he flipped over into a dive in a tempest carrying two 1000lb bombs from about 18000 feet. He just about managed to pull out around 5000-6000 feet and not before dropping the bombs and pulling on the stick with all his might. The pull out , he said ‘wrinkled’ the wings and popped a few rivets.

Any guestimates on the speed, or is the info too vague.?

Tests at RAE Farnborough:

1942-43 Spitfire IX, Sqn Ldr J. R. Tobin, true Mach number 0.893

P-47B and Mustang I – not above 0.805

1944 Spitfire PR. Mk XI Sqn Ldr A. F. (Tony) Martindale 0.92

Both P-38 and P-47 had dive recovery flaps on the underside of the wings to disturb the airflow. Flipped out to 35 degrees.

The completely redesigned Spiteful (Spitfire successor) had a short life. It’s wing was used in the Supermarine Attacker jet. The high-Mach performance was markedly inferior to the original Spitfire wing!

(All from Bill Gunston: Faster than Sound – Highly Recommended!)

Best regards

“SRD” above was my own invention in the middle of the night = Stress Related Disorder. (Sounds autentic 😉 )

Short rundown of Powles flight:

At 51.550 ft (true height) the pressurisation light came on, so he wanted to descent below 43.000 quickly. Pushed the control column forward, pulled throttle back to 1/3 position, pitch lever to 2.200 RPM. He didn’t close the throttle as he had earlier experience of the carburettor freezing, when he had reached low level. When opening up it once came unstuck, when he had the throttle fully open. The torque flipped the Spit. on to its back! Powles was checking the pressure seal around the canopy for holes, the aircraft started to shake and he saw the ASI passing 280 kts (Pilots Notes not above 260 above 40.000 ft). He immediately pulled back, but the a/c just dived steeper. The stick was immovable, and he thought about using the elevator trim, but was afraid of overstressing. He then remembered a test pilot had pulled out by pushing (control reversal). Maybe he could “bunt” out (would have made some red eyes!). The vibration and yawing stopped (thicker air) and there was less resistance in the column, the nose dropped further, so he quickly reversed and pulled to the edge of black out putting his feet on the top (dogfight) rudder pedals. He could see the instruments again (no vibration) and saw 500 kts rapidly dropping. Altimeter 3.300 ft. The cockpit iced over inside from condensation. Artificial horizon toppled, directional gyro spinning. Caging/ uncaging the gyro he used it and turn/slip needle, VSI and ASI to level at 4.600 ft. He had lost 48.000 ft in less than a minute! The carb. was indeed frozen but he had 4 psi boost and increased the RPM to 2.600 and started to climb above the unseen 5.000 ft peaks in the area. He aligned the gyro with the compass and called for a QDM. Opened the small airvent in the canopy. After five minutes the canopy was thawed enough to open with some difficulty. He landed OK, but was soaking wet to the socks, Mae West – everything! Besides sweating it out he was white as the wellknown sheet.

I must admit this makes my heart beat a little faster!

Best regards

Oh yeah….:o

Originally posted by DazDaMan
Fabric on what? The Hurricane had metal wings from 1940 onwards. ‘Twas only the fuselage that was fabric-covered.

Err….. What about the Rudder and Elevators??

Yeager landed by parachute after the zoom. (Official record then?) Got badly burned in the face by the still burning rocket seat that was entangled in his parachute lines.

Martindale passed 0.9 twice. First time (.92) losing prop and reduction gear. But landed back at Farnborough. Next time the engine blew up and he crashlanded with spinal injuries. Got back to the wreck to recover recording camera.

(“Faster than sound”, Bill Gunston)

Best regards

Amazingly this was in XR773 until very recently still flying with ThunderCity at Cape Town…..

have things changed then?

turbo NZ seem to recal he landed by parachute or was that only in the film?

and Mr Yeager got 103,000 ft in an F-104 didn’t he ?
However he didn’t really recover that well…..

Originally posted by atc pal
As I recall it was a gentleman flying from Hong Kong (A*roplane Monthly ??) that got the highest Mach No. in a Spitfire.

Isn’t this something to do with the air (tropopause or something?) out in the far east.

Not wishing to start another Lightning hi-jack thread or anything:rolleyes: , but it’s because of this that Delta Jets Hunter pilot Dave Roome has a claim on the highest altitude in a Lightning with a zoom climb topping out at just under 88,000ft, when with 74 Sqn at Tenegh in the late 60’s/early ’70’s. Amazingly this was in XR773 until very recently still flying with ThunderCity at Cape Town…..:D

Would have been an experience though….

Wonder how high the Griffon was revving…lots past 3000rpm I guess !!

and still didnt get it past mach 1

Originally posted by turbo_NZ
He would have definitely needed to go down to the hardware store to buy 5000 new rivets..:D

…and to Marks and Spencer for a clean pair of trousers I shouldn’t wonder 😀