Hillsborough The truth at last

Here are the fourteen questions that the jury were asked to produce their verdict:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-35401436

I will not list them as it will require a large quote from the BBC News website but if you read through them do you notice anything? There is no mention in any of the questions of the Football Association or Liverpool Football Club…

…clearly the Inquest had decided that the FA and LFC were to be absolved before the jury reached their verdict!

Sorry to re-awaken a four year old thread but it is interesting to see how accurate some of our predictions were now that ‘justice’ has finally been done.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-36138337

According to the BBC News the jury has concluded that:

– Match commander David Duckenfield was ‘responsible for manslaughter by gross negligence’

– Police errors caused a dangerous situation at the turnstiles

– Failures by commanding officers caused a crush on the terraces.

– There were mistakes in the police control box over the order to open the Leppings Lane end exit gates

– Defects at the stadium contributed to the disaster

– There was an error in the safety certification of the Hillsborough stadium

– South Yorkshire Police and South Yorkshire Ambulance Service delayed declaring a major incident

– The emergency response was therefore delayed

– Sheffield Wednesday failed to approve the plans for dedicated turnstiles for each pen

– There was inadequate signage at the club and misleading information on match tickets

– Club officials should have requested a delay in kick off as they were aware of a huge number of fans outside shortly before the game was due to start

So the Football Association bear no responsibility whatsoever then? Even though they were asked to change the venue due to safety concerns raised by Liverpool Football Club following previous crushes at the same end of the same ground in 1981, 1987 and 1988? The FA response (apparently): play at Hillsborough or forfeit the match!

And what of Liverpool Football Club itself; why was the match played if the ground was dangerous enough to warrant the request to the FA to have it changed?

The situation was a disaster waiting to happen…

…but in this case there were more than enough indicators regarding potential problems, all ignored.

The police are being held up as the sacrificial lamb and while their actions, particularly during and after the tragedy, were deplorable it is fair to say that others should be held to account.

I can’t ague with any of that.

While I agree completely that the actions of some Police officers following the disaster were deplorable and I find any attempt at a cover-up, whether it be lying or trying to smear others, absolutely inexcusable, I do have some sympathy (in their official capacity) for those having to make the split-second decisions on the ground, on the day.

It is easy for us to say wrong decisions were made (and they were), it is easy for us with all-the-time-in-the-world, our ‘omnipresent’ viewpoint and the benefit of hindsight to say what should have been done in the certain knowledge that it would have prevented the disaster but on the ground, on the day, I’ll guarantee that it isn’t so easy. Nobody (with the possible exception of a few Nottingham Forest fans) actually wanted to harm any of the Liverpool fans that day.

Who is to say if the ‘right’ decisions had been made there wouldn’t have been injuries or even some deaths in a crush at the turnstiles and the same ‘lack of Police control’ would have been criticized again. Would this have led to ‘Hillsborough’ in 1990 or 1991? We’ll never know and those that made the decisions on the day certainly couldn’t.

How would any of us have reacted when the accurate reports (those not suggesting crowd-trouble) started to come in, of twenty, forty, eighty dead; I think I know how I’d be feeling at that moment and I can assure you I would have been in no fit state to make any rational decisions.

At the end-of-the-day if we want a single human-being to take responsibility for our safety at this sort of event then we’d better get used to accepting a single human-error as the cause of any disasters. None of us are infallible.

… But the FA seem to have come away without much censure yet in reality should shoulder a fair bit of responsibility for their ground choice against the wishes and advice of others, plus whoever allocated the poorest end of the ground as far as accessibility is concerned, to the largest group of supporters should do some soul searching. …….

During my quest to find my ‘assailant’ I seem to recall comment being made that the stadium allocations were based on the likely access and egress routes to the city by the respective supporters; and the inevitable need to try to keep the fans apart. Whether that is true or not I don’t know – but yet another factor that contributed to the terrible outcome.

The Hillsborough stadium in it’s entirety was the elephant in the room even more than the fences.

But the FA seem to have come away without much censure yet in reality should shoulder a fair bit of responsibility for their ground choice against the wishes and advice of others, plus whoever allocated the poorest end of the ground as far as accessibility is concerned, to the largest group of supporters should do some soul searching.

The situation was a disaster waiting to happen, but the police as deployed were certainly not in control, add in bad decisions from the senior police officers in charge.

Yes we can all be wise after the event, but in this case there were more than enough indicators regarding potential problems, all ignored.

The police are being held up as the sacrificial lamb and while their actions, particularly during and after the tragedy, were deplorable it is fair to say that others should be held to account.

What about the deeply ingrained facts?

Surely the whole point of an inquiry is to find all the causes of a disaster; the fences at Hillsborough were the ‘elephant in the room’ of causes but apparently the inquiry failed to see them.

What happened after Hillsborough? The fences were taken down and stadiums went to all-ticketed-seating; funny thing to do if ‘the cause’ of the disaster was actually ‘lack of Police control’?

Twin Otter

You’re right I wasn’t there, in fact I had cut back attending football matches due to partly work commitments, but in fairness partly because the atmosphere in and around some grounds was becoming more ugly and threatening.

I do not for one minute believe that football fans are whiter than white, I do realise that hooliganism within football had become a real and dangerous problem.

But my reaction to the event is undoubtedly reinforced by the attempts from the outset to blame and blacken the fans, the full extent of which has now come to light.

Our opinions will always be coloured by our experiences, for me I don’t live in Liverpool, but fairly close by and was a Liverpool supporter, it is also fair to say that the anger and animosity built by the establishment and certain media never truly faded, with that in mind you were never going to get an historical reference to the report.

The report would be confined to that one event and as such was accurate in spite of the deep ingrained beliefs of some.

The historical background of football hooliganism in the UK has to be considered a causal factor for several reasons…

Exactly! I’d probably go further than that; I think the behaviour of the fans, and this certainly includes some Liverpool fans, but not those who died or were injured in the crush, was a contributory factor in the disaster, albeit a minor one. I’m not talking about ‘hooliganism’ or ‘violence’ but I’d say the general ‘crowd mentality’ of those fans outside the turnstiles when the game started coupled with alcohol consumption contributed to a situation where the Police feared there would be a crush outside the ground. Tragically the Police made the wrong decision; in trying to prevent one disaster they made a decision that was a major cause of another disaster.

However, the Hillsborough Justice Campaign states: “the British Judicial system has consistently found that violence or hooliganism played no part whatsoever in the disaster”.

So long as we restrict (the causes of) the disaster to events that happened between about 14:45 and 15:15 on 15th April 1989!

You may find ‘truth’ between those limits but I doubt you’ll find ‘justice’.

SF as you haven’t responded to my question in #28 I presume that you weren’t there!

As I entered the ground off the Penistone Road we crossed a small river bridge, the top of wall of which was lined with empty bottles and glasses; in the river below was a line of broken glass from the bottles and glasses that had been pushed off the wall. Yes, that was from the Forest ‘fans’; and we all know how important it is to get the most drinking time, but I would wager a lot of money the Liverpool fans were doing the same elsewhere!

The drunken tirade that I took exception to was, “Die you **********g scouse bas****s, die!” {N.B. the forum filters are rightly blocking the ” f ” word!}

This was shouted by a ‘fan’ that stood on a seat in front of me in a block of seating that was allocated to corporate box holders from the City Ground in Nottingham.

As a human being I still take exception to that abuse today; what made it more upsetting at the time and still today, was that anyone with half a brain cell could see that bodies were already being taken out of the Leppings Lane End of the ground.

Sadly there was a whole series of factors that combined to cause the horrendous loss of life and some of those factors are still being swept under the carpet if you fail to acknowledge the true role of the ‘fans’.

Silver Fox.

Sins of the Grandfather too….. From Wiki, but well worth the read.

Football hooliganism in England dates back to the 1880s, when individuals referred to as roughs caused trouble at football matches.[5] Local derby matches would usually have the worst trouble, but in an era when travelling fans were not common, roughs would sometimes attack the referees and the away team’s players.[76] In the early 1980s, many British hooligans started wearing expensive European designer clothing, to avoid attracting the attention of authorities. This led to the development of the casual subculture.

During the 1970s, organised hooligan firms started to emerge with clubs such as Arsenal (Gooners, The Herd), Aston Villa (Steamers, C-Crew, Villa Hardcore, Villa Youth), Birmingham City (Zulus, Zulu’s Warriors, Zulu’s Army, The Zulu), Derby County (Derby Lunatic Fringe), Chelsea (Headhunters), Everton (County Road Cutters), Liverpool (The Urchins), Leeds United (Leeds Service Crew), Middlesbrough (Middlesbrough Frontline), Newcastle United (Gremlins, Newcastle Mainline Express NME), Nottingham Forest (Forest Executive Crew), Manchester United (Red Army), Portsmouth (6.57 Crew), Sheffield United (Blades Business Crew), Tottenham Hotspur (Yid Army), Wolverhampton Wanderers (Subway Army) and most famously West Ham United’s (Inter City Firm). Lower league clubs also have firms, such as Blackpool’s (Rammy Arms Crew), Coventry City (The Legion), Millwall (Bushwackers), Stoke City (Naughty Forty) sunderland AFC (Seaburn Casuals), Walsall (Junction 9), Grimsby Town (GHS). Two main events in 1973 led to introduction of crowd segregation and fencing at football grounds in England.[77] Manchester United were relegated to the Second Division, the Red Army caused mayhem at grounds up and down the country, and a Bolton Wanderers fan stabbed a young Blackpool fan to death behind the Kop at Bloomfield Road during a Second Division match.[78]

The so-called relegation battle when Tottenham Hotspur and Chelsea fans fought on the pitch before Spurs relegated Chelsea in the return fixture in 1975, made national news when shown on the BBC television programme John Craven’s Newsround.

In March 1978, a full-scale riot broke out at The Den during an FA Cup quarter-final between Millwall and Ipswich. Fighting began on the terraces, then spilled out on to the pitch and into the narrow streets around the ground. Bottles, knives, iron bars, boots and concrete slabs rained from the sky. Dozens of innocent people were injured. In March 1985, hooligans who had attached themselves to Millwall were involved in large-scale rioting at Luton when Millwall played Luton Town in the quarter final of the FA Cup. Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher’s immediate response was to set up a “War Cabinet” to combat football hooliganism.[79] On 29 May 1985, 39 Juventus fans were crushed to death during the European Cup Final between Liverpool and Juventus at Heysel Stadium in Brussels; an event that became known as the Heysel Stadium disaster. Just before kick-off, Liverpool fans broke through a line of police officers and ran toward the Juventus supporters in a section of the ground containing both English and Italian fans. When a fence separating them from the Juventus fans was broken through, the English supporters attacked the Italian fans, the majority of whom were families rather than ultras who were situated in the other end of the ground. Many Italians tried to escape the fighting, and a wall collapsed on them.[80][81] As a result of the Heysel Stadium disaster, English clubs were banned from all European competitions until 1990, with Liverpool banned for an additional year.[82]

On 11 May 1985 a 14-year-old boy died at St Andrews stadium when fans were pushed by Police onto a wall which subsequently collapsed following crowd violence at a match between Birmingham City and Leeds United.[83][84] The fighting that day was described by Justice Popplewell, during the Popplewell Committee investigation into football in 1985 as more like “the Battle of Agincourt than a football match”.[79][85][86] Because of the other events in 1986 and the growing rise in football hooliganism during the early 1980s, an interim report from the committee stated that “football may not be able to continue in its present form much longer” unless hooliganism was reduced, perhaps by excluding “away” fans.[79]

Millwall hooligans were involved in their third high profile incident in decade on January 1988, when in an FA Cup tie against Arsenal at Highbury, 41 people were arrested for rioting after The Herd and The Millwall Bushwackers clashed.

Margaret Thatcher, UK Prime Minister from 1979 to 1990, made a high-profile public call for the country’s football hooligans to be given “stiff” prison sentences to act as a deterrent to others in a bid to clamp down on hooliganism. Her minister for sport, Colin Moynihan, attempted to bring in an ID card scheme for football supporters. This scheme, set out in Part I of the Football Spectators Act 1989, was however never implemented following criticism by the Taylor Report following the Hillsborough disaster in 1989, when 96 fans died.[8][80][81]

However, the Hillsborough Justice Campaign states: “the British Judicial system has consistently found that violence or hooliganism played no part whatsoever in the disaster”.[82] On 15 February 1995, England played Ireland. English fans started to throw items down into the stand below and rip up seats; after battles broke out between police and English fans, 50 people were injured.

The historical background of football hooliganism in the UK has to be considered a causal factor for several reasons.

1. It led to segregation of supporters and the erection of fences or pens, the very fences against which many of the Hillsborough 96 were crushed.

2. Channeling by the Police. Trying to get large numbers of fans into stadiums in a very short space of time in an effort to reduce the time fans were facing each other within the confines of the stadium as a whole and the individual pens in particular.

3. The Police were expecting trouble. Past history showed it was likely and that was what the Police had planned for. The Police saw what they expected to see. An onrush of fans towards the pitch and what they thought was a pitch invasion. This does not absolve the Police of blame but it may offer a reason for their lack of effectiveness in dealing with the situation.

4. The subculture of hatred, violence and tribalism. Twin Otter has given graphic testimony of the hatred shown by one ‘anonymous’ fan towards the fans of a rival club, even when it was clear that some of these fans were dead. The hatred shown by some elements of the fanbase of one club towards the supporters of another is reprehensible. If it was about race or gender something would be done, now it just seems to be an accepted part of the business of football.

There are, as I’ve suggested, plenty of people that blame can be apportioned to. The vast majority of them will be out of the reach of any form of prosecution.

Regards,

kev35

Yes, I know I’m on dangerous territory here but I’m not really trying to play the ‘blame game’; when I’m talking about responsibility I’m talking about the causes of the disaster not the ‘justice’ of finding the one entity that is most responsible.

Nobody, I hope, is (still) suggesting that there is any prejudice towards Liverpool; but I am suggesting that the behaviour of some football fans (including some Liverpool fans) led to the erection of fences at football grounds. That was a major cause of the Hillsborough disaster; just not on that day.

CD

Now you’re getting into “the sins of the fathers” or “guilt by association”, you can’t apply past events and draw the conclusion that there must be some fault to apply.

Come on, if for instance a member of your family committed a crime, then later a similar crime was committed, how would you feel if the same family member and yourself were held partly to blame just because you lived in the same area.

What an interesting post; thank you for sharing your recollections of the day.

Having re-read my post I’d like to stress that the fans that I think do hold some responsibility are fans from many different clubs at many different games, some years previously; games where there was trouble. But that list must include some Liverpool fans surely?

On the whole the behaviour of Liverpool and Nottingham fans at Hillsborough on the day of the disaster was good (by the standards of the day) and probably didn’t contribute significantly to the disaster but you can’t have an honest enquiry for ‘truth’ if you pre-empt the enquiry by saying that the Liverpool fans are absolved from all responsibility.

It wasn’t the fans on the day that made the fences necessary but I don’t hear anybody calling for the fans that did make them necessary to be brought to ‘justice’.

No one has responded to post #28 but let me declare my views in agreeing with the quoted post above!

I was at both Semi-Finals referred to in post #28.

For the 1989 match may late father and I were delayed on our journey to the match; we arrived late (by my standards) and ended up parking in the wrong part of Sheffield and as we rushed to the ground we passed pubs full of Nottingham Forest and Liverpool supporters who at around 14.40 hours were still drinking and hadn’t made their way to the ground. We sat in the Nottingham Forest allocated seats adjacent to the Leppings Lane End and clearly saw the terrible events unfold inside the ground; we left at about 15.15 because I had nearly been thrown into one of the walk-ways by a drunken Nottingham Forest ‘yob’ who objected to me asking him to calm down his obnoxious shouting when it was clear bodies were coming out of the Leppings Lane end of the ground!

Nothing that I have read from last week’s enquiry changes my view that CD’s last post sums up the wider issues that seem to now be being brushed under the carpet!

I spent around 6 months trying to identify the ‘yob’ who threatened my life; through official channels at NFFC, without success – I just wanted to discuss things with him when he was sober!

We left the ground at about 15.15, knowing my sister was still in the ground with the NFFC supporters at the opposite end of the ground (one of the most difficult decisions I’ve ever made) – I have never been to another football match since the ‘Hillsborough’ match and I never will attend again!

My sympathies are with the 96 who sadly lost their lives and their families.

Quite clearly there are still many who can’t accept that Liverpool fans were totally innocent…

And I’m afraid that I’m one of them.

Because I believe that some football fans were partly responsible for what happened at Hillsborough; and that must include some Liverpool fans. The tragedy is that those that died were not the football fans that bear that responsibility, but that doesn’t, to my mind, absolve all football fans from any responsibility and that must also include some Liverpool fans.

Now that’s going to rankle some people (I’m sure) but if we really are searching for ‘truth’ and ‘justice’ we must examine all the factors that led to this tragedy, we must accept that it isn’t going to be clear-cut and we must be prepared to apportion responsibility accurately if another similar tragedy is to be avoided.

This isn’t football, there isn’t going to be a winning side and a losing side (even after penalties); there is going to be, or there should be, a realistic apportion of responsibility.

The families of the ninety-six that died want a new enquiry or the original enquiry reopened; fine. They want the events after 15:15 examined; fine. But what about the events before 15th April 1989?

CD

Now we are coming much closer, as in so so many tragedies and disasters it is very rarely the actions of one individual or group which precipitates the problem.

As ever it is a combination of initial bad decisions, compounded by incompetence or even just errors of judgement, may sound callous in some way, but what has caused the anger to fester for so long has been the actions and statements from the establishment.

Quite clearly there are still many who can’t accept that Liverpool fans were totally innocent, but no fans at any time have deliberately lied to create a false picture, to pass the buck, the fans went where they were told to go, they finished up in an out of control situation not of their making and were massively, some would say criminally let down.

True, but let’s not forget the reputation of Liverpool fans (or football fans in general) in 1989; the Heysel Stadium Disaster had happened less than four years previously and the blame had (somewhat unfairly) been placed squarely on the heads of the Liverpool fans.

The ‘slur’ was, to an extent, pushing against an open door.

The supreme irony is that there are many parallels between the disasters at Heysel and Hillsborough; an inherently dangerous stadium, concerns by Liverpool FC over the venue, the intransigence of the governing body (UEFA), poor allocation of the terraces and the dynamics of a large crown, under heightened tensions, overwhelming a small part of the crowd against part of the stadium.

The enquiry saw it differently. It was Juventus fans that died so the Liverpool fans must be guilty…..right? :rolleyes:

One other parallel with Hillsborough is that, for some unknown reason, those looking to apportion blame, seem only to wish to attach blame to a single entity. Most disasters don’t work that way; it is usually a combination of factors that lead to disaster.

Oh, please let’s not turn this into an argument about politics / class / religion! :rolleyes:

The last thing on my mind, but let’s not forget just who it was who stuck the “drunken rabble” label on the fans.

Certainly not my fault as to who was in charge and their take or handling of the situation, to be fair would the reaction have been any better no matter what style of government was in charge?, I certainly don’t know that, by the same token West Yorkshire police have rightly taken a hammering over this, but would other police forces have reacted better?, again an unknown.

We can only deal and comment on who did what at the time.

I see where your coming from Kev, however, in those days, and I can only speak for my old Force, an Officers Statement, was written by himself, in Long Hand.
Therefor, should this be the case whereby a Senior Officer had changed it, the handwriting would be different.
This is a Briefs Christmas, as this will drag on for a very, very long time, go to the high Court, and beyond. I.M.H.O..and the Briefs, who represent the defendants will make a load of money.

As you said, there is plenty of blame to go around, But at the end of the day, “Where doe’s the Buck” stop?.

Jim.
Lincoln .7

Jim.

I think the implication is that the statements of some Officers were altered by more Senior Officers without the Officer who made the statement being told. from what I can gather many of the documents have been redacted to the extent that they no longer reflect what was originally written.

An example. A Doctor attending the match as a supporter moved onto the pitch to assist in the care of the injured and dying. He had received a blow to the head himself (how, I don’t know, but probably in the crush.) He was asking for equipment and finally given an oxygen cylinder which was empty. He was later told that his memory of the events was faulty due to the blow to the head and that he was not given an empty oxygen cylinder. On 5 Live the other the day this Doctor also stated that the Police suggested he had never even been at the match and that he was making it all up.

Regards,

kev35