Himmler and bomber crew executions

The Axis History Forum (not for the faint hearted) covers this topic every now and again.

This thread seems to have a translated German document which may shed some light on the official position (it’s a long one though…)

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=14467

What book Flood? Context is all 😎

No real context – the book in question was a witness-history book with the chapter in question about concentration camps. It just mentioned in passing the other nasty things the nazis did and this was one of them. I wondered if these things did happen on a large scale – we all know that this sort of thing did occur occasionally, but just how widespread was it?

Flood

😮 Put me back in time over Germany in a Mk IX Spitfire and I’d have helped those poor chaps escape………….. 😡 ………….(even if I was shot down before I fired a single shot 😀 )

I seem to recall there being some kind of propaganda campaign or similar after a B-17 crew were shot down. The names on the backs of their jackets (that is, the name of their bomber) seemed to serve as the basis for the propaganda:

Murder Inc.

I did read this very recently in the biography of a fighter pilot, but I can’t think for the life of me which one! There were also reproduced photos of the crew, and the leaflets.

I have read first-hand accounts by two aircrew who narrowly excaped execution by Nazi troops in one case and a lynch mob led by an SS officer in the other case. A 137 sqn Whirlwind pilot was allegedly executed on capture by troops he had been strafing. However, all the incidents I have read (apart from the killing of the Great Escapers) were ad-hoc attacks by angry troops or civilians rather than as a result of high command orders. Like so many aspects of Nazi decisions, there always seems to have been some confusion as Nazi top-brass were torn between a need to seem ruthless and an increasing desire to save their own worthless lives. For instance, Himmler eventually tried to sue for peace with Churchill.

In Taylor and Davison’s book ‘Bomber Boys’ there was a passage from a survivor recounting how he saw an officer in RAF uniform hanging from a street lamp, as they were taken through a bombed out town.

I can see how this might have been relatively common.

The book, BTW, is excellent, if rather depressing reading. One interesting passage quotes Churchill saying that a country would never be defeated by ‘terrorism’ – said during WWI about Zeppelin bombings….

DS

This is true – Von Kesselring refused to abide by the order and marked his card WITH High Command accordingly (this was one reason why he was imprisoned rather than executed after the war) my Uncle John was in the Intelligence Corps in the North Freisland Islands just after the War, his job was to hunt down Nazis and war criminals – one case involved both civillians and military personnel who executed a B-17 crew which bailed our near Borkum.

My Uncle John is a jolly interesting chap – as a young sulbatern he lived the high life as a member of the occupying forces – he requisitioned Von Runstedt’s Chateau and he and his men worked their way through the wine cellar for 2 years!

TT

Hi
There is an in depth (as only after the battle can do) article on the Russelheim? death march in issue 57. Macabre tale but not an infrequent event. Those resposible tried for war crimes after war. Searched for it but cannot find at the moment. Note to self- DO NOT LEND MAGAZINES TO FRIENDS. Will have another look as I am sure it contained an overview of the whole subject as well as this particular incident.

Cheers
Phil

Yes I remember that, a B17 crew who were put on a train, an air raid meant they had to be marched thru a town. Where a load of angy people including local police etc got carried away (I believe there was some ‘official’ involvement) and they were all bopped off in a nasty way. One chap survived under the bodies and managed to get away and tell his story…

After the battle mag

Hi
There is an in depth (as only after the battle can do) article on the Russelheim? death march in issue 57. Macabre tale but not an infrequent event. Those resposible tried for war crimes after war. Searched for it but cannot find at the moment. Note to self- DO NOT LEND MAGAZINES TO FRIENDS. Will have another look as I am sure it contained an overview of the whole subject as well as this particular incident.

Cheers
Phil

What book Flood? Context is all 😎

Aside from that – there’s no doubt that bomber crew were generally regarded in Germany, by NAZI party and general populace alike, as “Terrorflieger” and did not Mr Churchill ask “are we beasts?” (on seeing footage of mid-1943 attacks on the heavily populated Ruhr region: this reflection at times ascribed to him as a post-Dresen reaction).

I can understand victims of an “area bombing” raid being ill disposed towards those who carried it out. Similarly I can see how fellow airforce personnel would respect their opponents. It all rather depends on one’s perspective.

I have never heard of an order being issued by Herr Himmler to execute shot down bomber crews. I don’t know everything, so maybe it’s correct. However, all accounts I’ve read about allied crews in general being killed after a parachute descent, were at the hands of an angry mob. My general feeling is, through reading of course, that allied crew were save (at least not killed) in the hands of the German Armed Forces while being brought to the interrogation center. After they arrived there, some tricks were played on them, but I can not remember any instance of one actually being killed, though, of course, it might have happened.

Is it possible, that the order you are talking about is the killing of 50 recaptured prisoners from the Great Escape? In that instance, Hitler issued the order, and the SS carried it out. Since the SS carried out the killings, Herr Himmler must have issued the formal order.