HMAS Sydney II found

TinWing: To quote Darth Vader: “I find your lack of faith disturbing”

As an ex RAN member- please respect the dead of both sides as we have done so down here. On the day of the two wrecks being discovered the national flag was flown at half mast to signify our respects. Could you lower your tone and respect them as well PLEASE.

Quite on the contracy, I guess TinWing has done a much better job showing respect to the dead by telling the truth of their fate than all empty ‘expressions of sympathy with the relatives and mourning the dead’.. Don’t mean to offend anybody, but how helpful can be mourning the dead by someone who has never met them or their relatives, lived 15000 miles away and 70 years later?

The time of mourning was 1941, now it’s time to know what happened and speak about it openly.. I think I am right assuming that if there are any relatives left, then this is what they long to hear, not cheap phrases. There is no better way than truth to honor the fallen..

Very interesting, I wonder how far the lifeboats are from the main hull?
Interesting too that the life boats are so close together 2500m down.

Lifeboats found near wreck

The discovery of five lifeboats near the wreck has cast new light on the reasons why there were no survivors from Sydney. It looks as though the boats (or their davits) may have been too badly damaged by gunfire to be successfully launched. As the war progressed wooden boats in cruisers were largely replaced by carley floats and the apparent inability of Sydney’s crew to use the boats to escape demonstrates the value of this move.

The following is a report from the Sydney Morning Herald:

A new photo of the wreck of HMAS Sydney might have solved the mystery of whether some of the crew attempted a last-ditch escape as the ship sank.

The entire crew were thought to have gone down with the ship in November 1941 after a battle with the German raider Kormoran.

But initial photos showed all of the ship’s lifeboats were missing from their cradles, raising questions as to whether crew tried to flee in the boats as the ship sank.

But a photo released today seems to answer that question, with five lifeboats found resting on the ocean near the wreck of the Sydney.

“That means that people didn’t get away,” Tom Frame, the author of HMAS Sydney: Loss And Controversy, said.

Last week Professor Frame said questions remained about the lifeboats.

“There is still a real element of mystery as to why the amount of damage we are seeing in these pictures prevented the crew from getting off,” he said on Friday.

“It doesn’t seem from what we have seen that the ship sank suddenly. It doesn’t have the cataclysmic damage to explain why no one got away.”

The account of the tragedy given by German sailors aboard the Kormoran states the boat stayed afloat for at least six hours before sinking.

That would have been long enough for the crew to attempt an escape mission, Professor Frame said.

But today’s photo appears to have dispelled that notion and, when informed of the discovery, Professor Frame said it left few questions.

“The previous assumption was that if the lifeboats weren’t in the area then some people may have gotten away. But if [the lifeboats are] in the area then they sank and came loose and went down separately.”

The only question remaining now was whether the lifeboats themselves had suffered any damage, and whether that had rendered them useless.

“They may have tried to deploy them and they didn’t work,” he said.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/…420255381.html

This discovery certainly provides a plausible explanation as to why none of the crew survived the sinking.

Tas

From the recent pictures of the Sydney, it appears statements made by the German prisoners of war are factual.

http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/Top_News/2008/04/06/photos_of_sunken_ww2_naval_vessel_released/6990/

First pics have been released!!

http://www.findingsydney.com/gallery.asp

An inquiry still seems a bit pre emptive as neither wreck sites have been fully examined (or nothing has been reported to that effect) it just seems the RAAN are trying to cover for past embarrasment which is totally unnecassary so long after the events.

Both wrecks will take months to film and examine and that examination is going on as i write this so lets see what they turn up first.

curlyboy

Where’s yours?
see post above 😀

So why is there to be an inquiry, when all they need to do is ask you to tell
them what happened:D

——————————————————————————–

The Australian government today announced a new inquiry into the loss of HMAS Sydney II.

Quote:
HMAS SYDNEY II COMMISSION OF INQUIRY ANNOUNCED

The Acting Prime Minister, the Hon. Julia Gillard, and the Chief of the Defence Force, Air Chief Marshal Angus Houston, today announced the establishment of a Commission of Inquiry into the loss of HMAS Sydney II.

As foreshadowed by the Prime Minister, a Commission of Inquiry has been established to inquire into the circumstances surrounding the sinking of HMAS Sydney II.

The Hon. Terence Cole, AO, RFD, QC has been appointed President of this Commission of Inquiry.

With the aid of additional information likely to become available as a result of the discovery of the Sydney II shipwreck, the Commission of Inquiry will seek to determine the circumstances surrounding the tragic loss of Sydney II with its entire crew in November 1941, following an engagement with the German raider HSK Kormoran.

The wrecks of Sydney II and the Kormoran were recently discovered off the West Australian coast by The Finding Sydney Foundation.

Acting Prime Minister Gillard praised the Chief of the Defence Force for establishing the Commission of Inquiry which would examine the 66 year mystery of how Sydney II was lost with all hands.

“More than 600 of our nation’s finest sailors and airmen lost their lives and we still don’t know exactly how Sydney II met her end,” she said.

“I hope that through this inquiry we have a better understanding of what happened on that fateful day. In particular, I know that this Inquiry will have special significance to the families of those who lost loved ones on Sydney II.”

Air Chief Marshal Angus Houston said Mr Cole was eminently qualified to preside over one of Australia’s greatest maritime mysteries.

“I am extremely pleased that Mr Cole has accepted this appointment. He has a wealth of judicial experience and is very capable of undertaking this important task,” he said.

“During his distinguished career he has presided over two Royal Commissions, served as a NSW Supreme Court Judge, Judge of the NSW Court of Appeal and has held the position of Deputy Judge Advocate General of the Australian Defence Force.”

http://www.defence.gov.au/media/Depa…CurrentId=7540

Hopefully this will be the ‘final’ inquiry relating to the loss and the matter will then be allowed to rest.

Tas

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#35 31st March 2008, 09:52
JägerMarty
TIE fighter pilot Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 269

The Australian government today announced a new inquiry into the loss of HMAS Sydney II.

Hopefully this will be the ‘final’ inquiry relating to the loss and the matter will then be allowed to rest.

Tas

Hopefully indeed.
No disrispect to the fallen of both sides, but this sounds like a shocking waste of money. NO Australians survived, and there would only be a handfull of Kormoran survivors left to add anything, if at all to what was said back in WW2 as they were all captured and interrogated

New Inquiry into loss of HMAS Sydney II

The Australian government today announced a new inquiry into the loss of HMAS Sydney II.

HMAS SYDNEY II COMMISSION OF INQUIRY ANNOUNCED

The Acting Prime Minister, the Hon. Julia Gillard, and the Chief of the Defence Force, Air Chief Marshal Angus Houston, today announced the establishment of a Commission of Inquiry into the loss of HMAS Sydney II.

As foreshadowed by the Prime Minister, a Commission of Inquiry has been established to inquire into the circumstances surrounding the sinking of HMAS Sydney II.

The Hon. Terence Cole, AO, RFD, QC has been appointed President of this Commission of Inquiry.

With the aid of additional information likely to become available as a result of the discovery of the Sydney II shipwreck, the Commission of Inquiry will seek to determine the circumstances surrounding the tragic loss of Sydney II with its entire crew in November 1941, following an engagement with the German raider HSK Kormoran.

The wrecks of Sydney II and the Kormoran were recently discovered off the West Australian coast by The Finding Sydney Foundation.

Acting Prime Minister Gillard praised the Chief of the Defence Force for establishing the Commission of Inquiry which would examine the 66 year mystery of how Sydney II was lost with all hands.

“More than 600 of our nation’s finest sailors and airmen lost their lives and we still don’t know exactly how Sydney II met her end,” she said.

“I hope that through this inquiry we have a better understanding of what happened on that fateful day. In particular, I know that this Inquiry will have special significance to the families of those who lost loved ones on Sydney II.”

Air Chief Marshal Angus Houston said Mr Cole was eminently qualified to preside over one of Australia’s greatest maritime mysteries.

“I am extremely pleased that Mr Cole has accepted this appointment. He has a wealth of judicial experience and is very capable of undertaking this important task,” he said.

“During his distinguished career he has presided over two Royal Commissions, served as a NSW Supreme Court Judge, Judge of the NSW Court of Appeal and has held the position of Deputy Judge Advocate General of the Australian Defence Force.”

http://www.defence.gov.au/media/DepartmentalTpl.cfm?CurrentId=7540

Hopefully this will be the ‘final’ inquiry relating to the loss and the matter will then be allowed to rest.

Tas

Proof Please, or is it just your opinion:D

Where’s yours?
see post above 😀

It is fact. This issue was specifically investigated a number of years ago, and the movement records of all Japanese subs in service at that time were scrutinized, and it was shown that none were anywhere where they could possibly have been at (or gotten to) the battle site the evening of the battle or the next day or so.

Here are links to the full Parliamentary report of 199 (main page and section 5, which addresses the IJN sub point [5.39-5.69])

http://www.aph.gov.au/house/committee/jfadt/sydney/reportinx.htm

http://www.aph.gov.au/house/committee/jfadt/sydney/Sydch_5.htm

Apparently, there were not even IJN subs in the Indian Ocean at all, as they were being positioned for the attacks on Pearl Harbor, the US west coast, Indonesia, and the Philippines which took place 18 days later.

No, that theory is garbage:rolleyes:

Proof Please, or is it just your opinion:D

To say that the Japanese sub theorie is laughable is a bit strong, the fact is
nobody knows if a Japanese sub was working with the kormoran or not,
is it possible, yes, is it probable, no.

No, that theory is garbage:rolleyes:

To say that the Japanese sub theorie is laughable is a bit strong, the fact is
nobody knows if a Japanese sub was working with the kormoran or not,
is it possible, yes, is it probable, no. but remember that the Japanese had already attacked and sunk the USS Panay on 12 Dec 1937 for no reason. so I don’t think they would think twice about having a go at an Ozzie ship.
It would be interesting to hear what the remaining survivors of the Kormoran
have to say.

TinWing: To quote Darth Vader: “I find your lack of faith disturbing”

As an ex RAN member- please respect the dead of both sides as we have done so down here. On the day of the two wrecks being discovered the national flag was flown at half mast to signify our respects. Could you lower your tone and respect them as well PLEASE.

The questions as to what will be found on both wrecks is still up for debate, I’ve been reading and researching all the accounts, apparently Sydney slid beneath the waves quietly, but during the battle one of the early shots hit the magazine between A and B turrets and B turret was blown right off. So it should be interesting to see what is left.

They won’t discover much about the Sydney when they survey her properly. It will be nice to get a good look at her but that’s about it. the sonar reports show the bow missing.
She was subject to heavy gunfire from both sides, as well as torpedo damage. In short, they are going to see a very shot up wreck.

The Kormoran is in pieces too by the sounds. It’s a time to remember ALL those lost off the WA coast.

As Tinman said, the Japanese sub theories are just laughable, put out by the RAN to damp down a shocking loss, caused by and large a failure in command on Sydney’s bridge. And by all accounts, those on that bridge copped it first.

It was only in the last decade that it was discovered that the Titanic might have survived the collision with the iceberg if substandard quality iron rivets hadn’t been employed in here construction. Of course, this doesn’t alter the fact that the Titanic hit a very large iceberg – and investigation of the Sydney will not alter the fact all accounts indicate that she was lost due to negligence of her commander.

More proof for sealordlawrence that you dont always know what you are talking about recent discoverys at the titanic wreck site found a section of the hull which went from one bilge keel to the other (a section about 90ft wide by 20ft) which was why water flooded boiler room 6 long before the water from the bow damage could have reached it, the iceberg ripped the bottom out of titanic which was far more serious than the damage on the bow and was a key factor to her breaking at the surface.

But this is now off topic so i will leave it there, give it time and see what examination of the wrecks turn up, i dont really care about the touted conspiracy theorys, about the whats and whys or any collusion by the RAN i am just happy that relatives of those lost on the Sydney 60 years ago will have some type of closure and a place to mark their loss after so long.

curlyboy

Tin Wing, what a lot of people are politely saying is that given not one but two long lost war graves have been located, let there be a period of quiet reflection on the lives lost and a period of sympathy for the families on both sides who lost loved ones.

Given both ships will be subjected to ROV investigation, the truth about what happened will soon come to light.

Your continual belabouring of the points you have already repeatedly raised does you no credit. No one is saying that you are wrong in suggesting that the rumours of third party involvement were poorly handled, but now is not the time to harp on the point.

Perhaps you should let the matter drop until further evidence is obtained in the coming days.

Unicorn

The debate on who actually sunk the Bismarck still rages even though the Germans claim to have scuttled her but the wreck has sufficent underwater torpedo damage to go either way.

Even the Germans didn’t have the audacity to concoct a ridiculous reports of a 3rd party country’s submarine to explain an embarrassing loss.

The point i am making is that until the wrecks have been examined nothing is ‘certain’, not that i am calling anyone there incorrect but out of 700 survivors of RMS Titanic only 9 reported her breaking in 2 on the surface and they were scorned for decades until the wreck was found.

It was only in the last decade that it was discovered that the Titanic might have survived the collision with the iceberg if substandard quality iron rivets hadn’t been employed in here construction. Of course, this doesn’t alter the fact that the Titanic hit a very large iceberg – and investigation of the Sydney will not alter the fact all accounts indicate that she was lost due to negligence of her commander.

So lets just wait and see and remember those who died on both ships and leave this to the experts.

The “experts” in the wartime RAN were the ones who needlessly obfuscated the entire matter, allowing a well documented loss to become a supposed “maritime mystery,” when there was absolutely no mystery about the loss of HMAS Sydney with all hands.

The surviving family members might have found closure in 1941 if the RAN and Australian government had simply made public the accounts of the German survivors in a timely and truthful manner. Of course, in an atmosphere of wartime propaganda, such an uncomplimentary report might have undermined confidence in the civilian and military leadership – and rightly so. The unnecessary loss of the HMAS Sydney was not an isolated incident, but part of a general pattern of failures in naval leadership and planning, culminating the entirely avoidable destruction of the combined ABDA fleet.

It is entirely certain how Sydney met her fate, much in the same way that it was very well known how the Bismark met her fate. Examination of the wreck might indicate the extent of the damage inflicted by the Kormoran and the final cause of the sinking, whether it was a magazine explosion, flooding of multiple compartments, or whether the ship capsized. It will not alter the fact that the Sydney’s loss was entirely avoidable and the ultimate cause was a failure of leadership.

The cause of the sinking, enemy action by a lone German “Auxilary Cruiser,” is well known – and almost universally accepted outside of Australia.

You just dont get it do you?:mad: